Mathematics does not exist. It is an emergent consequence of computation. Mathematics is merely a distillation of some of the higher-order computational processes of our own brains. Only computation exists at a truly fundamental level in nature.
If this is the most elaborate level of trolling /prog/ can achieve these days, definitely the board is dead. Is no more. Is past done. Has ceased to be. Is pushing the daisies.
the sword; and he that is in
the city, famine and pestilence shall devour him.
7:16 But they that escape of them shall escape, and shall be on the
mountains like doves of the valleys, all of them mourning, every one
for his iniquity.
7:17 All hands shall be feeble, and all knees shall be weak as water.
7:18 They shall also gird themselves with sackcloth, and horror shall
cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all
their heads.
7:19 They shall cast their silver in
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 14:50
>>9
The brain itself is an emergent phenonemon. Even so called analog systems in our Universe, such as the electromagnetic spectrum, have finite levels of resolution and thus a finite number of states.
My argument is that the Universe itself, at the most fundamental microscopic levels is innately computational in nature, and therefore every higher-order pattern of matter and energy that emerges from the underlying processes are as well.
The Universe is at least Turing Complete, from an abstract perspective, otherwise we wouldn't be able to build universal Turing machines within it (that's not to say the Universe isn't capable of certain forms of hypercomputation, such as certain forms of quantum-computation). And I'm not alone in this argument, it is an emerging mainstream trend in physics, and it is shared by many physicists including Nobel prize winners.
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:17
C:\TEXT\BIBLE.TXT
uried his
father.
50:15 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they
said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us
all the evil which we did unto him.
50:16 And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did
command before he died, saying, 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph,
Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin;
for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the
trespass of the servants of the Go
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:23
>>11
Numbers are merely abstract representations of measurable differences in relative physical states. For example, imagine a room with ten sheep. The number 10 does not allow the existence of ten sheep, rather the fact that the universe has enough degrees of freedom, enough energy/matter, and enough space to allow for the existence of ten sheep, or ten of anything, begets the abstract concept of the number 10. Indeed, if our brains had a much more limited quantum configuration space, and thus incapable of simulating differences in states at the deliberative level, we would not be able to reason about such numbers at all.
From an agnostic point of view, if a God exists, he is not a craps player at a casino rolling the dice. He is a computer scientist who set the world in motion through computation.
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:27
/prog/ does not exist
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:44
Perfect justice is a profound thing.
God said "honest measures" was in play when I offer and get a response. Better offerings, better response.
I don't recommend getting to anal, but when I offer conversation, I get conversation. I don't expect money. You don't get something for nothing and if you do, it will not satisfy you.
God says...
C:\TEXT\WEALTH.TXT
-merchants, the carpenters and joiners, the brick-makers, etc.
Fourthly, and lastly, of the work which is made up and completed, but
which is still in the hands of the merchant and manufacturer, and not
yet disposed of or distributed to the proper consumers; such as the
finished work which we frequently find ready made in the shops of
the smith, the cabinet-maker, the goldsmith, the jeweller, the
china-merchant, etc. The circulating capital consists, in this manner,
of the provisions, materials, a
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:44
too anal
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:47
>>15
You're correct, it doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of electrons and photons traversing metallic wires and optical fiber (which don't really exist, other than as interesting patterns of metal and glass/ceramic molecules), reproduced from magnetically polarized metallic alloys on a harddisk platter that are interpreted by computer programs (which also don't really exist), relayed as specific patterns of photons emitted by computer monitors (which also don't exist), and interpreted by humans (which also don't really exist either, other than as vastly complex arrangements of organic molecules in specific energy states), all made possible due to the rich computational Universe we live in.
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:47
if you are generous to store, maybe it comes back to you in a raise at your job.
Love is like a magic penny -- hold it tight you won't have any. Spend it and you'll have so many.
velocity of money.
Not sure what to make of everybody in debt, though!
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:50
>>16
You're not making much sense, tdavis. I suggest you take more psychotropic drugs.
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 15:52
>>15
if /prog/ doesn't exist I'm not sure I exist!
also >>11
It could be hella ways and you wouldn't even be able to prove it...
could be that there is no order, no nothing except chaos... an infinite amount of unrelated random moments and this just happens to be one of them that makes sense...
could be that there's order from the chaos... that randomness kind of bubbles up but the laws of the universe dictate that large amounts of things happen in predictable ways...
could be that there's complete order, which would imply there's no free will, no room for nothing just a movie that we happen to be seeing...
point being: wtf does it matter? we perceive ourselves to have some kind of freedom in going about things and can leverage that to kind of "do what we want" within the parameters of our existence... if you insist on knowing how it all works i think you're kind of missing the point...
If we weren't around to interpret the bundles of organic molecules that comprise ourselves as the abstract human notion known as a "human being," would "human beings" exist?
Name:
Anonymous2011-10-03 16:20
>>20
Perfect justice -- "By the measure you measure-out, it will be measured unto you." "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth." "Forgive us as we forgive others."
C:\TEXT\QUIX.TXT
of the
field you choose, and I will do the same; and to whom God shall give it
may Saint Peter add his blessing."
The Knight of the White Moon had been seen from the city, and it was told
the viceroy how he was in conversation with Don Quixote. The viceroy,
fancying it must be some fresh adventure got up by Don Antonio Moreno or
some other gentleman of the city, hurried out at once to the beach
accompanied by Don Antonio and several other gentlemen, just as Don
Quixote was wheeling Rocinante rou
>>21
Chaos can be perfectly ordered as well.
My personal opinion is that the ``whole'' that makes one multiverse is perfectly ordered (and possibly describable by an arithmetical structure, and thus also computational), however as far as the individual is concerned, there is always a lot of randomness: 1st person indeterminacy (for example, why are you this specific conscious being or why were you born here and not there, or why in this particular country or world or universe or physical state).
Free will has nothing to do with this randomness, even if it didn't exist and everything was 100% locally deterministic as far as the local universe one exists in is concerned (no 1st person indeterminacy), you would still be free to do what you want, but not free to select what you want (can be changed temporally, but you can't change your current state which affects your future states). Some would even say that free will that comes only from randomness isn't worth being called free will at all. The problem is more with the term ``free will'' which is flawed. >>1
I suspect computation is absolute (as natural numbers). I'm agnostic about the ontological existence of particular set theories/ordinals and thus also of real numbers or hypercomputation. I don't think it's even possible for a simpler axiomatic system based on arithmetic/computation to be able to accept that a system is performing hypercomputation if they were presented one as the only way to verify the truth of the output of a hypercomputational system is to be able to perform hypercomputation yourself (you can't) - at best you could use computation (like a theorem prover) to find certain mathematical truths about maybe fictional/maybe not fictional hypercomputational systems and see that your physical hypercomputational system obeys those laws, but you would never be able to know that the answers this hypercomputational oracle is giving you are true for things which are uncomputable.