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VS11

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 0:31

So, is VS11 express just as bloated as the VS10?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 1:10

yep

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 3:03

No, they totally slimmed it down and got rid of all of .NET, MFC, ActiveX, OLE, COM, and a few dozen other technologies that just weren't worth the overhead.  It's now just a pure C compiler (they even dropped support for C++).  Shit is so cash bro.  This back-to-basics retooling was long overdue.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 3:30

>>3
hah

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 3:37

>>3
Not so fast son. I've been taking a look at it too, I'll probably create another thread about this just to piss off the GC people too.

Essentially, what they've done is they took the syntax of C++/CLI, their managed .NET extensions for C++, and the back end semantics of say Objective-C++ with reference counting and combined it all together, calling it C++ for Windows Runtime (or WinRT for short).

So C++/CLI essentially compiles down to native machine language code, but automatically emits reference counting retain/release semantics on ref-counted objects (denoted using the ^ pointer syntax). They've completely gutted garbage collection from the core runtime.

The WinRT internals still run within a managed VM JIT interpreter, for interoping with C# and other .NET code, they've just removed the GC heap. .NET is now built ontop of this new VM, and extends it with a GC heap.

So much for GC, even incremental so called real-time GC, it's so bad that Microsoft had to get rid of it to remain competitive against Apple on embedded devices.

That aside, with WinRT, it looks like they've finally managed to come up with something that kills MFC/ATL for native applications development on the Windows platform, with performance characteristics that should rival Objective-C/C++ but with the same level of ease-of-development.

It's also a shame that they focused on C++ for WinRT instead of on adding C++11 features.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 3:48

>>5
Wait.... C++/CLI only it generates machine code and doesn't use garbage collection? Holy fuck, this could be the language we've all been waiting for.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 3:53

>>5
reference counting
not purely functional

enjoy ur leaked cycles

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 4:02

>>7
Cycles are handled through weak-references.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 4:04

Windows 8 - Touhoufield 3: Miko on Fire

http://i.imgur.com/v4ReH.jpg

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 4:08

>>8
enjoy manually finding cycles yourself instead of letting an algorithm do this tedious and highly automatable task for you.

enjoy being more like a computer than a programmer.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 8:16

>>10
I am autistic, so indeed I am more like a computer than a programmer (which is a human being).

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 9:35

>>11
Aren't we all?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 16:34

>>5
automatically emits reference counting retain/release semantics on ref-counted objects
Apple are doing exactly the same thing for Objective-C.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 23:42

vim or bust

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 5:48

>>5
I always hated C++/CLI. The performance was shit, the syntax was even worse than the syntax of normal C++, and the VS10 didn't even fully support the language. VS10 didn't even fully support C/C++, since it didn't have proper syntax highlighting and it messed up formatting when declaring anonymous functions.

IMO, Microsoft should just get rid of that shit language and fully back C#. It's a much simpler and more sensible language. The performance gain could actually make the language competitive.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 10:10

>>15
C++/CLI is a fucking abomination. It was only ever intended to help with the transition into C#, but as usual Microsoft don't know what the fuck they're doing.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 11:26

>>16
and they still continue development for it, simultaneously letting a half-decent language (C#) rot in the shadow of a massive piece of shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:07

>>13
Did you miss the part where I fucking said it's just like Objective-C/C++? Fucking retard.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:09

>>15
C# relies on GC though. How can you have C# without GC? You can't!

The reason MS did this was to have a language without GC.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:11

>>17
C# is actually pretty shitty because it uses garbage collection.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:13

>>20
Garbage collection is the only good feature of C#.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:21

>>21
Shows how badly brain-damaged you are.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:24

>>22
Let me just call you a fagstorm and end this discussion with my apparent and undisputed victory.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:29

>>23
I'm sorry, can't let you do that. .NET is dead. Microsoft is killing it because the main threat that .NET was created to counter no longer exists (Sun Microsystems and Java). Java is on the slow decline, it's pretty much become the new COBOL. Sorry, you shit language and platform is no longer relevant.

Meanwhile, C and C++ continue to be relevant, in this coming age of manycore and low-power computing. That must really ruffle your jimmies.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 12:54

>>24

3/10 would read again

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 13:18

>>24
You obviously haven't been paying attention to BUILD, have you? .NET has been superceded by WinRT. WinRT != .NET. WinRT is a native COM API/ABI with reference-counting, and C++/CLI was redesigned to offer first-class syntax for it. On top of this, they added shims so you can continue to use C#, VB.NET, or other managed CLR languages, but the core WinRT runtime is no longer managed, it's just native machine code with no garbage collection. And in another direction, they added their Javascript and XAML layer for user-interfaces, which isn't running on the CLR either, and has it's own GC tailored for Javascript.

They're also killing off numerous .NET technologies, including WPF, XNA, and Silverlight and are attempting to help kill off Flash. IE10 running under the Metro UI in Windows 8 no longer has support for native/activex plugins, including Flash or Silverlight. They're copying Apple in this regard, with the main focus being on HTML5 and CSS3.

XNA is no longer available for Metro, you need to program directly against the DirectX COM API using C++ for WinRT.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 13:23

>>26
This. C# is now a second class citizen in WinRT. Are you butt-ranged, >>25? Angry that MS is abandoning you and your ilk like they abandoned their native developers back around 2002? You should be. I hope this makes you bitter.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 14:17

If it ain't GC, it's shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 14:34

>>26
Experience has shown that the more languages and techniques you add, the better the result will be. I give this five years, tops.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 14:52

>>26
and are attempting to help kill off Flash. IE10 running under the Metro UI in Windows 8 no longer has support for native/activex plugins, including Flash
Brilliant if their goal was to kill of IE10!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 14:58

OVER 20 GIGABYTES OF BLOATED AND CRUFT

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 15:55

>>27
But that's nothing! They're going to abandon Windows Phone 7 developers in favor of Metro, just like they abandoned WP6 in favor of WP7.

An then, in 5 (if that) years, they'll abandon WinRT/Metro too.

At some point they'll hopefully realize that the few people that actually had a clue about designing stuff left the company years ago, and they'll stop trying to change shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 19:13

>>32
DESIGN BY COMMITTEE IS THE ONLY WAY

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 20:44

Wait, are they really deprecating the VM approach in favour of native code again just as the mixing of the mobile and desktop markets is causing computers to be architecturally heterogeneous?
When .NET was getting popular enough that they might have been able to have a painful but manageable break with their Intel architecture dependency in ten to twenty years time?
Are they trying to be in counter-phase with the market?

Name: Anonymous 2013-06-14 9:44

test

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