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INFINITY

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 12:47

Let's say you have a bag with infinite apples inside. You begin taking out the apples randomly. There is one (maybe more) particular apple that will never be taken out.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 12:55

polecat kebabs

Name: VIPPER 2011-07-30 12:57

JEWS

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 14:00

What if you had infinite time to take out apples?

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 14:03

>>4
It depends if the the apple count is bigger infinity than your time infinity.

Name: VIPPER 2011-07-30 14:05

>>5
bigger infinity
Get out, jew.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 14:49

you have a bag with infinite apples inside
You should donate it to starving 3rd world countries.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 16:11

>>1
Poor shlimazel dreams about infinite apples, apparently his whore of a mother is getting too ugly to have enough income left after vodka-related expenses to feed him properly :(

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 16:21

cardinality of my anus!

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 16:48

>>6
actually I'm an atheist. How does one's religious beliefs even matter here?

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 16:50

>>10
Ask that to the ``in Lisp'' spammer.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 17:53

>>10>>11
Ask that to the lambda.txt
http://www.gotlisp.com/lambda/lambda.txt
If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John D. Barrow, Between Inner Space and Outer Space, Oxford University Press, 1999, p 88.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:00

>>12
If that's how you want to define it, it's fine, although the definition is something along these lines (I used google's definitions):
1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
3. A particular system of faith and worship
Now if arithmetic is a religion, it's only one which asserts that it's consistent (contains no contradictions) when extended to infinite length (as opposed to any finite partition, such as with digital computers(although that's actually modulo n, not limited at some specific number), which is free from these issues). What it has been proven is that a finite consistency proof for an infinite system like peano arithmetic is not possible within itself, which actually makes perfect sense. You could of course just do a proof by induction, erm, transfinite infuction up to Aleph Null cardinality, but wether that is better or not is questionable as set theory is stronger than arithmetic and is more likely to have issues.

I can have "faith" (if we're using religion's terms here) in arithmetic's consistency, but I'm not so sure about set theory as it's a lot more varied in its axioms.
The actual "faith" part does make sense. You have provable and true statements in arithmetic, they apply to finite statements which can be proven in finite steps. And you may have true, but unprovable statements, such as the consistency of the entire system - this is unprovable as it would require an infinite amount of steps to prove it within arithmetic itself (without adding any axioms or asking some stronger system for help, such as the transfinite induction example earlier). Of course, one should be very careful here: asserting truth of an unprovable statement can lead to contradiction if done within arithmetic itself (and thus it leads to contradiction and falsity), so while we can intuit that arithmetic is consistent (or even assert it within some stronger axiomatic system), we can never make that claim within arithmetic itself, lest is inconsistent.

Either way, the stranger thing is wether this is true within set theory:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/b/7/3b7eae31da752e0d91c10da0d3b489f4.png (2^aleph_0=aleph_1)
It is both impossible to prove and disprove its truth value, without adding additional axioms to the system.

Either way, while I think it's not that troublesome to be a finitist as far as uncountable infinities of infinite objects (as real numbers are) are concerned and regard them as useful fictions, but I cannot ever take the ultrafinitist approach for purely philosophical reasons which would make us impossible to exist if we took that approach, but I'm not going to elaborate on that as I'm guessing you equate any philosophical dabbling with religion (despite that I lack any belief in a "Supreme Being", the most unusual belief that I have is that of Arithmetical Platonism, but like all beliefs, it's updatable, it's not faith, it's merely what what I consider most probable for now, and if something arises that would introduce some serious contradictions that would make me change this belief, I can do it (I've examined the current arguments against this position and they are unconvincing to me)).

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:08

>>13
it's only one which asserts that it's consistent when extended to infinite length
What is "infinite length"? I fear you're seeing things we, goyim, dont see. Are there voices in your head, believer? Are they telling you that you, jews, are The Master Race and all goyim are cattle?

---

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

If I asked you what group of people embrace a set of doctrines like this, what would your answer be? Most of you would probably answer, "The Nazis." Today, in fact, it is Jews who make all these poisonous claims to racial superiority. No, not all the Jews. But, as I will document, a huge number of leaders among the Jews ascribe to these wicked and dangerous theories of racial and blood superiority.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:25

Maybe length is the wrong way to say it. It is merely that there is an infinite number of natural numbers. If you don't like saying the word "infinite", look at it this way, assume N is a natural number, then by peano's axioms, N's successor (what we write N+1), exists and is greatar than N, thus we achieve a contradiction, which means there is no greatest number N (which is what would be called an infinite amount of natural numbers. I'm not involving cardinalities here, despite them making sense to a certain degree when talking about infinities).

Oh, I'm also not of the race that you claim I am, however it's pointless to argue such details over the Internet.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:29

>>15
by peano's axioms
"by God's Word"

sorry, but axioms mean nothing by themself.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:33

>>16
They are the system's definition. You can derive theorems true within that system and prove falsity of statements.
If you think Peano's axioms are wrong, you're free to show where the contradiction lies. If some axiomatic system leads to contradiction, it's trivial and can be discarded if you so wish.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:35

>>13,15
YHBT.

>>14
You want me to hate you so that I can love jews? Not today, jew.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:51

>>17
If you think Peano's axioms are wrong, you're free to show where the contradiction lies.
I dont think. I either see or dont see. "Thinking", in general, is wrong, as it indulges fantasies, like talmudic "God". So I don't see, how "Peano's axioms" apply to observable reality.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 19:57

>>19
I dont think. I either see or dont see.
The universe is constantly expanding.
Let's say you write down a length N for the current maximal length from one end to another.
After a few plank time moments, it will be greater than N, and so on, and so on. Assuming time never "stops", the length itself is tending toward infinity, and if time were infinite, so would the length be, however for any moment in time you will see a finite length N, it will just be greater each time though, thus there is no maximal length.

Anyways, you say the reason you refuse to think is to avoid fantasies such as ``God'', well, the reason why such fantasies are dubious is that they can involved contradictions. Use your thinking and develop systems without contradictions in them (do you think the universe embodies contradictions?). If some of them seem to mirror some system in reality exactly, you may use your knowledge from this non-contradictory system that you constructed, however I'm willing to say mathematical systems have other uses besides only practical applications within this universe.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 20:54

>>20
The universe is constantly expanding.
The universe is constantly WHAT?!! Sorry, can't reason about things I haven't seen.

Let's say you write down a length N for the current maximal length from one end to another. After a few plank time moments, it will be greater than N, and so on, and so on.
What are "plank time moments"? How do you measure them? How did you got "current maximal length"?

Please, stop thinking fantasies.

Assuming time never "stops", the length itself is tending toward infinity, and if time were infinite, so would the length be
What? Now you're talking like these tv-evangelists: "and if time were infinite, so would the God be"


Anyways, you say the reason you refuse to think is to avoid fantasies such as ``God'', well, the reason why such fantasies are dubious is that they can involved contradictions.


Use your thinking and develop systems without contradictions in them (do you think the universe embodies contradictions?).
What one sees through his eyes works. I don't see any reason developing fantasy systems, even without contradictions. And the likes of you already did enough of these invisible pink unicorns systems and other string theories to show their uselessness.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 21:14

>>21
How can you develop predictions about systems' behavior (real or imagined) without developing an internal model for them. You may just deny all such modelling, but that's hardly useful for anything.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 21:38

Thread peaked at >>13 and has gone downhill

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 22:27

>>23
It was the peak of /prog/, since all the years I've been here.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-30 22:56

>>21
Fuck you hypocrite. If you were at least an atheist... Have you ever seen your allah with your own eyes? And don't you bow to him? The only honesty in you is when you admit that you don't have the mental structures to understand what some posters kindly try to explain to you. That doesn't make you superior, you're just a shameless idiot.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 1:02

>>22
Pattern matching? You have seen this pattern before and you already know how it behaves. You don't make any prediction, just react to input data.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 6:05

>>25
What is "allah"? Do you know what you're talking about?

Allah is a mental trick to free mind from societal taboos and animalistic instincts.
Allah is the one who permits.
Allah is the one who calms fear.
Allah is the one who justifies any believer's action.
If muslim kills you, it will be the will of Allah and if muslim dies, being on The Way of Allah, he will go to The Paradise with lovely eyed houris. Muslim has nothing to fear, but Allah.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 7:27

>>-
Stop getting trolled, goddamned retards.

>>29
No, I'm not a ``jewish maggot'', go away.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 8:38

What if the apples are natural numbers, and the they are removed from the bag in ascending order.

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 12:12

This thread is full of morons, including >>31-

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 13:20

>>30
fuck off and die you rude belligerent loutish faggot

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 13:35

>>1
kike

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 14:26

How do you choose a random element in an infinite set? What distribution do you use?

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 14:28

>>33
UbaNTo

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 14:43

>>34
           

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 14:50

>>1
Nope. You're wrong. Here's why.

Apples take up a finite volume of space. Say an upper bound of 1000cm^3. Given that space-time itself is discrete, there are a finite number of atomic, sub-atomic, string or amplitude flow/configuration phase-space state configurations possible that you can pack within a 1000cm^3 volume.

Therefore, by the PIGEON HOLE PRINCIPLE, given an infinite supply of apples, you will eventually, in a finite amount of time, enumerate all possible apples more than once as you pick them, such that there is no particular distinguishable apple that you have not yet selected.

QED

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 15:01

Name: Anonymous 2011-07-31 15:22

>>37
            
                             
                   
                                                          
          

Name: The Infinity-loathing Kike 2011-07-31 16:39

good thread

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-06 11:31

boompsy

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-06 15:09

Infinite Apple Discussion -> Religion Argument

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-06 15:41

>>41
Specially because it's about Apple

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-06 22:19

>>42
Specially because it's infinite.

Name: Anonymous 2013-09-15 18:04

check 'em

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