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Did the Jews do imaginary numbers?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 1:49

There is no square root of negative one.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:19

>>29
As a matter of fact, I have performed this experiment myself. A child in gradeschool can do it, and so can you. Use google.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:21

>>38
define "expect"

>>39
But, subjectively, I don't see any "God" or "Infinity". So I've no reason to believe. You see, subjectivity means absence of authorities, beyond your senses.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:22

>>41
I cant, because all needed information encoded with set theory. It's like pointing me to the Bible, saying that I'll find anserts there, when in fact I don't even uderstand the terms used in Bible scriptures.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:23

>>42
expect == predict, think that it will happen in the future, ...

If you don't make any predicitions about possible futures, your mind is useless, after all, it's its main function.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:23

>>42
define "define"

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:24

>>45
define "define \"define\""

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:24

>>46
define "define \"define \\\"define\\\"\""

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:29

>>44
expect == predict, think that it will happen in the future, ...
Don't know how to predict.


If you don't make any predicitions about possible futures, your mind is useless, after all, it's its main function.
No. It's main function - applying patterns it already experienced. That is your problem. And the main problem of today AI experts. These jerks believe that psychology and AI is a subject of mathematics.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:29

>>47
>\\\
syntax error.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:31

>>42
As an objectivist, I don't see any ``God'' or ``Infinity'' either. Conciousness is emergent from the inherent nature of the universe through realistic/materialistic means. This is not ``God.'' This is not ``Infinity.'' Under objectivism, conciousness is not necessary to define reality, whereas under subjectivism it is. Subjectivism does not allow for reductionism of the concisousness, and I'm afraid that any philosophy that does not allow for reductionism is inherently wrong.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:31

>>48
Possible future states are predicted from learned patterns.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:34

>>49
define "syntax"
define "error"

>>48,50-51
Please, try to ignore troll posts!

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:36

>>51
When have you learned the experience of being shoot in the head, my dear?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:41

Indirectly by looking at what happens to people who had brain damage.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:42

>>50
Conciousness is emergent from the inherent nature of the universe through realistic/materialistic means.
You should write a Bible. Like Ron L. Hubbard did, but replace God/Xenu with "realistic/materialistic means".

Under objectivism, conciousness is not necessary to define reality, whereas under subjectivism it is.
Nope. Subjectivism doesn't define anything. You youself define, as you wish. You can extend subjectivism future to so called "consensus reality", when a group of people've experineced their own personal "God".

Subjectivism does not allow for reductionism of the concisousness, and I'm afraid that any philosophy that does not allow for reductionism is inherently wrong.
How can you reduce that, what you can't see?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:46

>>54
What've you seen?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:46

>>55
I don't think you can get very far in reality without at least applying some sort of science/testing and/or math (be it math that exists or math that you make yourself).

I welcome you to build your own computer from scratch without using modern physics, modern math or modern engineering practices.
If a computer is too much, you can try something simpler.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:49

>>56
Brain damage can cause behavioral changes, memory loss and a lot of other interesting effects. There are entire fields dedicated to studying the workings of the brain, almost all being based on practical, physical experiments - this should make you happy as you hate abstract thought.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:49

>>57
I don't think you can get very far in reality without at least applying some sort of science/testing and/or math (be it math that exists or math that you make yourself).
Why would I need "God" or "Infinity" to get far? Or you're pointing, that if I need followers, I must first brainwash them with some religion?

I welcome you to build your own computer from scratch without using modern physics, modern math or modern engineering practices.
Who will finance this endevour?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:50

>>58
So? How this makes reality "objective" and proves existence of "Infinity"?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:52

>>59
Imagine that you have the funds, could you do it without modern math, physics and engineering? Will you go on a hundred year quest to greenspun yourself a "modern math, physics and engineering" knowledge (maybe expressed in a less ambiguous language)?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 8:59

>>61
No. It can't be done in my lifetime, without using work of others.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:00

Tease pry io tgnore proll tosts.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:00

>>62
But this changes nothing. Being that LISP is an unpopular language doesn't make all other languages less inferior.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:01

>>62
So you expect to have a finite lifetime, but you haven't experienced death to know for sure. Yet you reject my observation that the brain is the cause of the the mind and that it is physical (brain damage example).
>>63
I should do that.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:08

>>65
So you expect to have a finite lifetime, but you haven't experienced death to know for sure.
I've seen others die and I see myself aging. It's my subjective justification.

Yet you reject my observation that the brain is the cause of the the mind and that it is physical (brain damage example).
What your subjective ovservation has to do with objectivity?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:09

>>55
You should write a Bible. Like Ron L. Hubbard did, but replace God/Xenu with "realistic/materialistic means".
Bibles attempt to describe the truth, albeit a false truth upon subjective ideals. I merely posit that there is a truth, I don't claim to know what it is, and in fact I am bold enough to say that all religions and spiritual ideologies imagined by humanity are probably false.

Nope. Subjectivism doesn't define anything. You youself define, as you wish. You can extend subjectivism future to so called "consensus reality", when a group of people've experineced their own personal "God".

``Subjectivism is a philosophical tenet that accords primacy to subjective experience as fundamental of all measure and law. In extreme forms like Solipsism, it may hold that the nature and existence of every object depends solely on someone's subjective awareness of it. For example, Wittgenstein wrote in Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus: "The subject doesn't belong to the world, but it is a limit of the world" (proposition 5.632). One may also consider the qualified empiricism of George Berkeley in this context, given his reliance on God as the prime mover of human perception.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivism

Subjectivism by definition implies the necessity of consciousness, for without consciousness one cannot be ``aware'' of anything.

How can you reduce that, what you can't see?

Just because our eyes cannot observe a phenomenon without the aid of a materialistic tool that exploits some emergent principle within our universe (such as lens and optics), doesn't mean it isn't real.

There are other ways to reason about causality that does not excite the visual modality.

The map is not the territory.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:11

>>63 >>65
I should do that.
Yes. You should once and for all come to a consensus reality ignoring me and stop spamming every thread, kitties.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:17

>>67
Bibles attempt to describe the truth, albeit a false truth upon subjective ideals.
Aint that is what mathematics attempts to do?

I merely posit that there is a truth
define "truth"

I don't claim to know what it is, and in fact I am bold enough to say that all religions and spiritual ideologies imagined by humanity are probably false.
Don't forget that your mathematics also just a religion, with its own rituals and idolatry.

Subjectivism by definition implies the necessity of consciousness, for without consciousness one cannot be ``aware'' of anything.
Nope. It merely implies presence of "subjective experience". But that is obvious, as you can see the display of your PC, sense the keyboard keys, and listen to mp3 files.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:19

>>69
I don't forget that term "mind" is itself subjective.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:20

>>67
Just because our eyes cannot observe a phenomenon without the aid of a materialistic tool that exploits some emergent principle within our universe (such as lens and optics), doesn't mean it isn't real.
Your eyes can observe tool. It's all just senses.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:23

Korzybski (1879–1950) had determined that two forms of the verb 'to be'—the 'is' of identity and the 'is' of predication—had structural problems. For example, the sentence "The coat is red" has no observer, the sentence "We see the coat as red" (where "we" indicates observers) appears more specific in context as regards light waves and colour as determined by modern science, that is, colour results from a reaction in the human brain.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:30

Aint that is what mathematics attempts to do?
Mathematics attempts to explore or ``mine'' the space of all possible formal systems in which specific truths can be consistently formulated. It doesn't attempt to explain reality.

define "truth"
http://yudkowsky.net/rational/the-simple-truth

TL;DR - there is an objective reality outside of subjective idealism that can't be altered by altering one's perception of it, and there are certain truths that can be distilled from that reality.

Don't forget that your mathematics also just a religion, with its own rituals and idolatry.
The truths still remain if you remove the traditions and rituals.

Nope. It merely implies presence of "subjective experience". But that is obvious, as you can see the display of your PC, sense the keyboard keys, and listen to mp3 files.
Subjective experience requires conscious and deliberative thought processes. It appears you are trapped by the circular logic required to accept subjectivism.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:39

>>73
Mathematics attempts to explore or ``mine'' the space of all possible formal systems in which specific truths can be consistently formulated. It doesn't attempt to explain reality.
What is this "all possible"?

http://yudkowsky.net/rational/the-simple-truth
Sorry. Can't find truth there.

The truths still remain if you remove the traditions and rituals.
Yep. Infinity still reamains, even if you remove `oo` symbol from a unicode font.


Subjective experience requires conscious deliberative thought processes.
define "conscious deliberative"

It appears you are trapped by the circular logic required to accept subjectivism.
How does manifests itself? Where is logic in feeling and experiencing the light of day?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:50

>>74
What is this "all possible"?
Whatever that may be. I doubt it is infinite however.

>Sorry. Can't find truth there.
Not my fault.

Yep. Infinity still reamains, even if you remove `oo` symbol from a unicode font.
There are formal systems without infinity. Just because some of mathematics is tainted with ``infinity'' doesn't mean it all is.

define "conscious deliberative"
http://dictionary.reference.com/

How does manifests itself? Where is logic in feeling and experiencing the light of day?

Sensory input and behavioral response, emergent from your nervous system. ``Feelings'' don't exist in the ontologically reductionist sense, but are rather fuzzy internal mental states that affect all levels cognition, which is why the deliberative level is aware of them. There is nothing magical about it, nothing supernatural. Your body and everything in the universe is computational in nature. The universe is a computer, in the weakest, abstract sense. Deal with it.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 9:58

Why is that the one board on all of 4chan with the most intelligent people also happens to be the board with the worst trolls, the most shit posters, and the worst memes?

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 10:23

>>76
Because your gay.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 10:56

I just showed this thread to my Set Theory professor, and he was 'quite startled by the insanity present within otherwise seemingly bright and able minds.'

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 10:58

>>76
Because intelligent people are the best at feeding trolls, and trolls are aware of that.

Actual /prog/ ``memes'' like SICP (``read SICP'' is not a bad advice either), The Sussman, FIOC and UMH can even be enjoyable, and distinguish /prog/ from your usual programming community.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-25 11:00

>>78
I hope he was referring to the subjective idealists aka trolls.

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