Anti-C++ Hipsters

People who hate C++ are only doing so because it's hip and cool to hate on something that seems too complex at first glance. You want to be seen as cool and edgy, as someone who goes against the grain, when in reality you're just another annoying undergraduate that will probably have a hard time finding a job in the field.

C++ is not perfect, but no language is. Get over it.

>>37

If they have an obsession with performance, they'd write Fortran

I tried using D
But then I downloaded a bunch of IDE's that didn't work and eclipse wouldn't either so I said fuck it

Lisp is not perfect

wtfamireading.jpg

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>>16
<-- check 'em

C++ is bullshit. Use C, or even objective C

>>45

objective C

Are you kid fucking me?

>>45
C
No.

C++ programs are not shorter or easier to maintain than the equivalent C programs. This has been shown many times.

D is what C++ should have been. anyway, i code business shit all day, where Java makes the most sense.

>>49
Java makes the most sense

this is never the case. sorry.

what you mean is, "where a GC'd language with powerful semantics and minimal bullshit is forced no the programmer makes the most sense."

The only thing Java has of that is GC.

After spending over three years programming Java, Python, and Delphi every fucking single day at Kodak, I've come to the conclusion that all three languages need to die a slow and horrible death.

>>51
Kodak will fire you, if they learn that you wish to ruin their whole business.

>>49
So what kind of stuff do you need to code for businesses?

>>50
no, the biggest advantage java has over something like C++ is full stack trace availability any time an error occurs. that and it rules out entire subclasses of problems. the type safety is also a huge factor. eclipse and other tools let me see every single place a variable is referenced very easily. a type unsafe language like javascript just can't do that.

typical business programming is to be given 100k line program, be told, "hey we want this bug fixed or this feature added", and to do it as quickly as possible and safely as possible. that is very difficult with C++. even if you don't create a new bug, rearranging variables in memory could expose old memory smashing bugs. things like valgrind are nice, but if a bug only occurs at high transaction rates, then it's not going to help you.

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>>39
<-- check 'em dubz

>>54
type safety
You don't know what you're talking about, don't you?

>>54
not arguing for C++ but,

if it weren't Java it WOULDN'T BE 100K LINES. It would probably be a fifth of that in a "scripting language" or Lisp.

Java necessitates itself in the most sadistic ways. I'm "glad" the type system is set up so that Netbeans can write get and set function for me. This shit feels like Stockholm syndrome.

>>56
I've been coding for 15 years in a variety of high and low level languages. I'd like to hear you explain why javascript is type safe.

'7' + 4 = 74
'7' - 4 = 3

>>57
scripting languages become unwieldy as projects grow in size. they are also slow, much slower than java on average. ruby and python are the worst offenders here. and i wouldn't even think of writing a large project in perl.

>>58
Do you know that in some languages, while the variable type is immutable, the actual value isn't?! I know, isn't that shocking.

Also, Java isn't the same as Javascript.

>>59
Did you know that implicit conversion is a violation of type safety? Even C is considered weakly typed.

>>61
How do you figure? The the conversion is done for the values, and for variables, which have immutable types.

>>58
scripting languages become unwieldy as projects grow in size.

depends on what you mean by size. Scripting languages can prevent you from NEEDING to grow the project, in many dimensions. If you do it RIGHT, you cut down on all the "accidental, intermediate" complexity and are just stuck with the complexity of the problem you're solving, which is usually not very substantial in the end.

they are also slow, much slower than java on average.

but with a scripting language you can usually profile and write the bottlenecks in C. The solution to performance is to have easy interop with C, not to try to sacrifice the simplicity of your VM, syntax, and semantics for petty short-term performance concerns.

>>61
"type safety" as it is commonly used, is a spectrum, not an all or nothing thing. the more contexts and cases a language exhibits type safety, the more type safe it is. java is more type safe than most scripting languages and also lower level languages like C.

>>63
some projects are just large no matter how you code them. there are plenty i have to deal with at work. and once you are over say 10000 lines of code, no matter what language, you start needing to find references to variables in files you didn't even know about. a scripting language isn't going to magically turn 100k line project into 3k lines of code. that type of reduction is not possible, unless the project was coded in an especially asinine way.

i agree that performance is not always an issue, especially in DB limited applications. however, performance often IS an issue. users do not like slow. and a project that starts and ends in the same language is easier to maintain than one that uses two or more languages.

>>60
yes of course. java is fine but javascript sucks for the same reason that most scripting languages do.

>>59
i have no idea what you're getting at.

>>58
That's not type safety, it's moronic type coercion.

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>>61
<-- that's cool and all, but check my doubles over there

>>64
You still aren't making the distinction between a variable type and value type when it comes to your loser languages like C and Java.

>>64
a scripting language isn't going to magically turn 100k line project into 3k lines of code. that type of reduction is not possible, unless the project was coded in an especially asinine way.

I have seen very little written in Java that wasn't written in an especially asinine way. 97% reduction isn't realistic, but over 50% is, with the way I've seen Java written. I'm talking about shit like this, which can be found in Sun's own code: http://harmful.cat-v.org/Blog/2009/08/05/0-java-factory/

Scripting languages make this code look as dumb as it is. Java dresses it up and enshrines it.

I also think you are overestimating how important the type system is. Many of its strengths make up for its own weaknesses. You don't need your IDE to "refactor" a class name-change in 100 different files in Python (for instance) simply because in Python you aren't tagging things with class names all over the place. (Duck-typing is a great way to decouple things, and it's basically what Java interfaces aim to do, but without having to make 1 or 2 new files every time you write a new class.)

Really, the biggest advantage of Java is that you can do nothing and pretend to yourself or others that you're being productive.

>>67
i don't see why i need to distinguish between lvals and rvals when discussing type safety in general. anyway, related:
http://i.imgur.com/f0FE8.png

>>68
java is not without some dumb stuff and i always hated factories. however, i'm entirely not convinced that scripting languages are as magical as you make them out to be. also, i have always despised duck typing. if an api chose not to implement an interface, then you probably shouldn't be throwing objects from that api into another api just because the function sigs match up.

anyway, open up the error console in FF and load news.google.com. tons of warnings. no one cares. this is scripting, if we can slap it together and it doesn't fall apart, our day is done.

>>69
I was talking about your failure to make the distinction between the variable type and the value type in your loser languages like C and Java. At no more and time was I talking about lvals and rvals. Wtf? Are you some tech monkey that does some kind of moderate scripting for your job? Just curious because I find it hard to believe that anyone who has been programming for over 15 years (for a living) can be this fucking dense.

*At no point and time*

>>70
rvals are for all intents and purposes the same as what you call "values". and "types" and "variables" are very different things. variables, when assignable, are "lvals". so any distinction you can make between "values" and "variables" will be the same as the distinction between lvals and rvals. however, that distinction is not germane to type safety. whether something is an lval or an rval is just another attribute of a token in an expression. rvals can't be on the left side of an assignment, or passed in to a function by reference. other than that, they are pretty much the same. for discussions of type safety or casting, lval vs rval isn't very interesting.

anyway, you give away your own youth with your immaturity.

Well, how about going back to reddit, you all?

>>40
No C++ would mean `vidja' programmed in saner alternatives, which would in turn increase support for `vidja' development in other languages.

>>73
yeah, this is a board for talking about how awesome SICP is and calling one another faggots

>>72
rvals are for all intents and purposes the same as what you call "values"

Incorrect. Often times an rvalue is a variable.

You don't seem to have a real clue as to what is going on. In your langauges like C and Java, the variable has a type with is immutable. That is, once you compile the code, the type of the variable, for the most part can't be changed. However, the value, which also has a type, can be changed.

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>>57
<-- that's cool and all, but check 'em

>>72

And for a more precise and accurate defintion, please refer to the appropriate language specification instead of relying on google or whatever lame laymans textbook that you got your nonsense from.

C++ is a language designed to solve the problems of C++.

Some languages are less perfect than others.