WebDevelopment

I decided to try and get into web development and now need to pick a language for serverside programming. I'm still more or less a newbie programmer who only knows Java, X/HTML and CSS and I would prefer not to use Java as it is... well, you know.

I learned some assembly for the heck of it, so complexity is not an issue as long as the language is commonly supported by hosts (sometime the customer may pick a host by himself..) and performs faster.

I would also appreciate added reasoning as to why you suggest the language that you do.

Thanks

>>1
PHP and perl are the most mainstream languages, try them.

I know, i know, im a flaming faggot for suggesting that.

PHP and Perl are probably the most commonly supported languages by web hosts, although some hosts are now supporting Python and Ruby on Rails.

Just pick a language, and pick a web framework. Try to make a simple blog engine with a login system for commenting, and an admin panel to post entries and delete spam and stuff. Don't make it too complex. If it takes more than two days to figure everything out, move along to another framework. If nothing 'clicks', or if you're getting a general "holy fuck this language is awful" feeling, switch languages.

I like Python. TurboGears is nice, and so is Bottle, depends on if I'm doing something big or small. Django gets a lot of hype, I don't find it all that great but give it a try anyway, because everyone has different opinions.

Ruby's got some nice frameworks too. (Rails isn't one of them.) I know at least a couple /prog/riders like Sinatra. Merb's probably the closest analogue to Pylons; Nitro's worth a look.

If you're really looking for easy deployment, as said already, PHP is supported practically everywhere. It's a shit language but it does have the advantage of being really easy to get working. Perl's a bit more complex and less ubiquitous but it's ok I guess.

Rooby on Rayles

Per+CGI/Markup::Perl, bitches.

Choose Perl if you're not at all interested at understanding your code after you've written it, or having others understand your code at any point.

Almost any language can be used.
Most well-supported by cheap hostings are probably PHP and Perl, maybe Python more currently. If you own your own dedicated server or VPS (15-50$+/mo) you can use anything as you control the OS.
I don't see your problem with using Java as it's a better language than PHP, and you claim to know it. If you want something mainstream, but decent for web development, learn Python or Ruby and use one of their web frameworks. If you want something decent, but less mainstream, try one of those lispy web frameworks (there's a few good ones for Common Lisp, and a bunch for Scheme ones, there's Clojure (JVM, not to be confused with Clozure), there's also Arc, but I don't consider it mature enough of a language). There are also usable java/jvm and c#/.net web frameworks which you can use as you're familiar with the language.

there's also Arc
Is it still based around <table>s?

http://www.seaside.st/

Go with Perl. I heard it thickens the neckbeard.

Can you embed Python in an HTML file as you would PHP?

If so, I would love to start learning Python and forget about PHP for my little pet project that I'm going to do soon.

>>12
Probably, although I imagine it looks as bad as PHP or erb

>>12
Use a templating engine like Jinja, Mako, etc. It's a much saner route.

Many of Python's template systems have a way to "run" the template directly, e.g. mako-render, and you can embed Python code into them, so I guess that's sort of like PHP. But there's a shitton more flexibility in those than with a PHP script.

>>12
Can you embed Python in an HTML file as you would PHP?
I'd like to point out that this line got serious replies.

>>1
assembly ... complexity
This had better be a fucking troll.

On the off chance that it isn't: Python is the best realistic option, but shitty shared webhosts don't necessarily support it. Perl sucks balls, but is widely supported by aforementioned webhosts. Anyone who recommends PHP should be treated as if they recommended you give them your first-born to kill and eat, because they're exactly as concerned about your well-being.
PHP may have the lowest entry barrier to people who really don't have a clue what the fuck they're doing (>>12), and a lot of web ``developers'' seem to get away with never actually not not knowing what they're doing, but any sensible programmer will turn to homicide soon enough.

Oh great, another thread primed and ready to take shits on PHP. The only seriously awful and annoying problem about PHP is its Unicode support. Beyond that it's one of the best options for web development. The same features that enable novice programmers to make awful websites allow experienced programmers to quickly prototype and develop web projects. PHP is already a framework and a templating system. There is no ontological reason not to use it, only particular cases where another option would be better.

Like this one, for example. I would recommend that you start out with Java, since you are already familiar with the language. PHP's learning curve would be narrow for you, but you may as well build upon your existing knowledge.

>>17
subtle troll, but not a very good one. 4/10

There is no ontological reason not to use it
I don't see what ontology has to do with this.

>>18
My opinion is unpopular on /prog/ but I assure you I am not intending to offend anyone.

>>19
Maybe it wasn't the best word, but I had trouble thinking of a better one. Ontological in the sense there is nothing essential about its being that precludes it from being a useful and reasonable choice (instead, its use should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis).

Some cents.

Get a language and a framework if its helpful. Although I use PHP and Ruby, I don't use PHP for anything new. There are obviously Java web frameworks out there. I have no idea if any are good.

PHP is pretty fucked up. I don't think anyone will argue with that. You can write decent programs with it, but the frameworks either use outdated design (CodeIgniter), make Rails 1 look fast (CakePHP), or might as well be in Java land (Symfony). 5.3 has closures, which is nice, but PHP's scoping makes it a little funky (you're not in JavaScript land anymore). It's also hard to find great PHP code. Even things that should be good are blah (Wordpress), and some things that are widely used are downright horrifying (osCommerce). However, you can treat PHP as a sort of dynamic Java if you use PHP5 style. Take a look at SabreDAV to see a good example of this. Not sure how I feel about coding like that, but if I had a new gig to maintain some PHP, i'd much rather see a directory full of exception stubs than SQL chilling out with some <td> tags. I'd avoid templating systems in PHP too. PHP already is a templating system. There are legit uses for them (user-created templates), but I bet YAGNI.

I like Ruby. It's a good language, and can be productive once you get the hang of it and stop being ``clever'' with all the silly things it can do (and are unnecessary in most situations). As for frameworks, Rails 2.0ish was kind of shitty, but they started merging Merb features in around 2.3, and Rails 3 is the best of both Merb and Rails. Merb is dead, long live Merb, etc. Basically you can swap out anything you don't like, and all the worst parts about Rails (The old AR api, Prototype integration) are gone. Passenger makes things easier than the crazy pack-of-mongrels days, but it's still not quite 'FTP your .php file and run it' easy. Beyond Rails, I love Sinatra. It's great for things that don't fit into the CRUD/RMDBS, and I find the DSL really fits well with the idea of the restful, stateless web.

Overall, if you're using a framework, consider things beyond its immediate functionality. Pretty much anything can send HTML to the browser decently enough. For example, my favorite things about Rails are the console and migrations. Even little things like .gitignore files in the right places. Figure out what you want/need.

Or you could just go the cool/batshit route and use node.js, couch and js only on the browser. JSON EVERYTHING

OP here. Thank you for the detailed answers. Still somewhat confused, but much less so.