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On Objective-C and Faggots

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 11:45

So this faggot iPhone developer has been bitching to me about how C++ is a shitty language and how Objective-C is the greatest thing on the planet. How can I get back at him?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 11:49

What are you, 12? Can't come up with your own arguments? Or -- maybe, just maybe -- he could be right?

Name: sage 2009-11-22 11:58

>>1-2,4
same fag

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 12:01

Though it certainly isn't the greatest thing on the planet, it's safe to say that it is indeed better than C++, whenever performance isn't a concern, that is.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:37

>>4
Oh really.

I bet you like that convenient behavior of silently ignoring attempts to dereference null pointers to objects. That works so great, if you like spending hours tracking down an obscure bug.

I love typing objectAtIndex, isEqualToString, etc. all over the place to deal with things that should be intrinsic. Why the hell does ObjC not allow any way to overload an operator? Smalltalk could do that (and quite cleanly I might add, in comparison with most other languages that allow it), so why can't its bastard child?

If id is supposed to be a pointer type, shouldn't it be id* instead? It's incongruous with the rest of language.

You can't have an implementation of a throwaway class without still providing the interface, even if it's right fucking there. Why do I have to repeat myself all the time?

I love the named parameters that you can't rearrange. Why the hell give them names then? It's just more goddamn typing. The best thing is it still compiles if you put them in the wrong order, it just gives a warning, and then merrily crashes at runtime. Hope you're paying attention to the warnings.

Which brings me to my next annoyance. Objective C programmers think this:

if (someshit = othershit) {
    // do stuff
}

is somehow good style. They are goddamn fucking retarded. -Wall complains about that, and with good reason; you practically have to disable that warning if you want to program in Objective C and not go insane.

And here's my hands-down favorite feature of Objective C: how the living fuck do you pass a pointer to a member function? Particularly, if you want to make a table of functions, say for keybindings or something, or if god-forbid you need to call some C code that expects a function pointer. With C++, you have to pass a pointer to the function, and give the object as its parameter[/code]. In ObjC, you need to do a bunch of cumbersome acrobatics to get at the selector's implementation method (e.g., [object methodForSelector:@selector(dostuff)]) -- or give up and just write a wrapper function. No wonder Apple added closures, it's the only half-sane way to do this (and it still sucks).

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:40

[/code]
See, I can't even write a post properly, that's how much Objective C annoys me.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 17:36

>>5
You mean "dereferencing" or "sending a message to"?

Smalltalk has operator overloading because every operator is a method, and thus dynamically dispatched just like any method. I wouldn't call it clean, though, since there's no way you can assign precedence to operators.

Because then id would be just like void, and that would make even less sense.

Yes you can, as long as it's defined before it's used.

Neither can Smalltalk's. Why would ObjC be any different, since it's objective is basically adding Smalltalk's object model and message sending syntax to C?

I thinkg the example you're looking for is
if (self = [super init]) {
   // do stuff
}

and it's not a problem of the language, it's just an ugly idiom that is more of a shibboleth than an endorsement of a programming practice.

One line of code is cumbersome? A bit melodramatic, are we?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 17:58

[myanus hax]

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 19:18

>>7
Good job writing a post that makes no fucking sense, unless you read it in parallel with >>5.

"Sending a message to", whatever. In C++ this involves a dereference. I don't know how ObjC implements things under the hood but it really could shit a brick, or at the very least print something out that can be trapped within a debugger so that these sorts of things can be tracked down before they blow up in your face 500 lines later. The sooner you can identify a problem, the better.

Yes you can, as long as it's defined before it's used.
Ah. Never mind. My mistake, I usually use -Werror. (As it's the only way I can catch that parameter-rearranging nonsense)

Still, bringing up even a warning for something like that -- at least, unless you're specifically requesting warnings for such pedantry -- is pretty annoying. C++ surely doesn't warn you about defining a class without prototyping it in full.

Why would ObjC be any different
Because people have had better ideas since Smalltalk was invented. Even Visual Basic has rearrangeable named args for fuck's sake.

not a problem of the language
I fully characterize problems of the userbase of a language as a subcategory of problems of the language itself. This only fails to be true if you live in a vacuum. In the Real World you have to work with other people's code.

And that's not just "one line of code". That's a very messy and hard-to-remember line of code in comparison with the C++-style &foo::bar (which works much the same way as passing around any other pointer) -- and you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that it takes more than that line to properly call a member function. Of course in either language the only sane and portable way to call a member function if from a wrapper, but it's certainly convenient to be able to cast to a function type with void * as the first arg (i.e. this) on supporting systems.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 19:50

Not >>5 here, but all of that and more:

Methods don't have names. They just have named parameters. Instead, the actual name of the function is munged into the first parameter name. So for a method called 'init' that takes 'frame' and 'style', you get:

- (void)initWithFrame:(CGRect)frame style:(SomeEnum)style;

Autorelease pools are a half-decent workaround to the lack of garbage collection, except they make debugging a nightmare. It doesn't capture a stack trace when you autorelease something; instead you just get an exception deep in the implementation of the autorelease pool, off the event thread, and you have no idea what object that even was unless you just happened to be using Instruments at the time to track allocation histories for you.

Exceptions. What a completely broken language feature before garbage collection came around (and it's still not available on iPhone). You basically *have* to autorelease everything as you allocate it in case an exception goes by, but it's incredibly easy to fuck this up. No way to clean up non-memory resources except lots of try/catch blocks (the Java way, of course). And don't even try mixing them with C++; they don't unwind the stack. They just longjmp.

And don't forget, any time you make an autorelease pool, you have to try/catch to release it! Something the docs of course don't tell you; it's apparently good style to leak the whole pool and all of its contents if an exception goes by.

You mean "dereferencing" or "sending a message to"?
Same thing, you're arguing semantics; the pointer would need to be dereferenced to handle a message (because it would need to access some internal state), except that the runtime 'helpfully' detects the nil and skips the method for you. Complete fucking insanity.

This is actually my favorite anti-feature of the language. Have you seen the rules for return values from methods on nil? 0 if it fits in a register or if it's a struct by value that fits entirely in registers, based on the cpu architecture and compiler packing rules. And if it doesn't fit? EAX is a *valid stack pointer* to uninitialized garbage data. Think I'm joking? Go look at the docs. Unbelievable.

how the living fuck do you pass a pointer to a member function?
This actually doesn't bother me. If you interface with C, you have to write function pointer wrappers no matter what language you're using. It's silly to expect Obj-C to provide you this facility. Besides, it's a lot easier to do this in Obj-C than say C++, because in C++ you have to friend the wrapper or make your member callback public; either way you're uglying your interface. In Obj-C at least classes are open, so you can add the callback privately in an implementation file and write a one-line function to call it.

Because then id would be just like void, and that would make even less sense.
So why the fuck isn't it just void? I *hate* that they've stolen 'id' from me; people use that as an identifier fucking everywhere!! Why can't I use it in Obj-C? Could they have picked a worse word to typedef away?

Also, that kind of pointer aliasing is really fucking stupid. Just when the entire rest of the world is finally wising up to strict aliasing and strict typing rules (C99 adding restrict, etc), Obj-C go and fuck it up. It's not possible to build an Obj-C app with strict aliasing.

-Wall complains about that, and with good reason; you practically have to disable that warning if you want to program in Objective C and not go insane.
At work we build with -Wall, and use double parenths around this. It's not so bad; what's bad is when you try to integrate some third-party code which doesn't build with -Wall.

And yes, >>7, it is a programming practice endorsed by the language designers. Go look at the docs; the idiom is absolutely everywhere in all sample code, in all tutorials and examples. Create a project template in Xcode right now, and you will see single parenths around the init methods. That's bullshit.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 19:52

>>10
To expand on this, look how fucking complex the rules on exceptions and autorelease pools are:

http://chanson.livejournal.com/126035.html

At first glance, this looks fine. After all, if -doSomething throws an exception, the autorelease pool will still be cleaned up when the next autorelease pool "out" in scope is released. However, this could actually happen before the exception is delivered — by the release of an outer autorelease pool in a @finally block — meaning the exception would be a zombie on delivery!

Fucking fantastic. Freeing an exception before it's even caught; well done Obj-C.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 20:01

Methods don't have names. They just have named parameters.
Ahh yes, that brings up another thing about Objective C that just blows my mind in a "this should never have been possible" sort of way:

@implementation blah
+(int): (int) w: (int) x: (int) y: (int) z { return w + x + y + z; }
@end
int main() { return [blah: 1: 2: 3: 4]; }


Not that anyone ever does that (thankfully).

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 20:44

>>9
I didn't want to make an extra long post, so skipping the quotes kept it short enough. It's pretty easy to figure out what's going on, though.

Yeah, that "message to nil does nothing" thing really makes no sense.

What do you mean by "not prototyping it in full"? Do you mean defining functions inside a class definition, the latter being in a compiling unit instead of a header? Because it's not the same thing as omitting the @interface of an ObjC class, you know. Anyway, if you define an empty @interface, the warnings will go away -- you can even define a macro to define the empty interface @interface and begin an @implementation at the same time, so that you don't have to write the class name twice.

The thing is, those labels are not argument names, they're part of the method's name, so rearranging doStuff:with:and: is really pointless.

Whatever, that idiom is really only used in object initialization, so you know where to expect it. Also, I believe you can have the compiler issue warnings for that, so you'll know where the shit may be spilling from.

That's a very messy and hard-to-remember line of code in comparison with the C++-style &foo::bar
It's a simple method call, how hard to remember can it be? Or do you fear you won't remember it because you'll rarely have to use it?
and you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that it takes more than that line to properly call a member function.
Well, of course it does. One line to get the funcion, one line to call the function. Why would you want less?

Man, I don't know how you can whine about such minor issues and be happy with the huge convoluted messes that are C++ and the code it's users generate. Well, to each their own, I guess.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 20:59

>>10
So why the fuck isn't it just void?
Because id has properties that void * doesn't (and shouldn't) have. But you're right, they should have named it any, or Any, or whatever.

Create a project template in Xcode right now, and you will see single parenths around the init methods.
Well, I've only used ObjC with GnuStep, so I guess I'm out of the loop on that one.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 21:10

>>11
That's Cocoa's fault, not ObjC's. And isn't Cocoa garbage-collected now?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 21:22

>>13
I never said I was happy with C++. I was merely rebutting the proposition that Objective C was somehow better. It's not.

Your attitude really underscores one of the main problems I have with Objective C. Its users tend to have had way too much kool-aid to be cognizant of its faults. At least C++ users tend to realize at the very least that it's a very large language, perhaps overgrown, and that some of it really doesn't make sense.

Personally, I don't use either. Plain old C has been very good to me.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 21:31

>>16
Personally, I don't use either. Plain old C has been very good to me.
I don't either, I was merely being argumentative. Though I must say that if given the choice between C++ and ObjC, I'd choose the latter mostly because I have a softspot for Smalltalk.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 21:46

>>9
Of course in either language the only sane and portable way to call a member function if from a wrapper, but it's certainly convenient to be able to cast to a function type with void * as the first arg (i.e. this) on supporting systems.
This is dumb, the only compiler that supports this is the one from digital mars. On most systems with most compilers, a member function pointer is actually larger than sizeof(void*).

You should *always* write a C wrapper to interface with C code. C code, therefore C wrapper. There are plenty of worse things to complain about.

>>13
Well, of course it does. One line to get the funcion, one line to call the function. Why would you want less?
Haha I fucking lol'd, you've obviously never written a function that uses a selector as a callback (especially if it takes several arguments). We have helpers to call selector functions and they're a good 10 lines of code each.

>>14
Because id has properties that void * doesn't (and shouldn't) have.
That's fair, except it conflicts with your earlier comment:

Because then id would be just like void, and that would make even less sense.
id is not just like void; it's a struct containing the isa class. So why wasn't it defined as a non-pointer type? No other Objective-C class name has the pointer type in it; you declare NSString*, NSArray*, etc.

>>15
I keep hearing this argument and I hate it so much. Any problems with the language are just waved away as problems with the libraries, except that the libraries are the de-facto fucking standard for the language. How can you write Objective-C apps without using NSString? How the fuck do you avoid autorelease pools when all your basic libraries use them? Your argument is a bullshit fucking cop-out.

And no, it's not fucking garbage collected on iPhone.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 21:51

>>18
Actually I realize my comments about id/void make no sense. Just ignore that part.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 22:02

>>18
you've obviously never written a function that uses a selector as a callback (especially if it takes several arguments). We have helpers to call selector functions and they're a good 10 lines of code each.
Can you post an example?

id is not just like void; it's a struct containing the isa class.
I did not remember that, I recalled id as an "enhanced" version of void *, and since void is actually a non-type, I thought replacing it with id would make it a non-type also, which would make no sense. I stand corrected.

And no, it's not fucking garbage collected on iPhone.
That's iPhone's fault, not ObjC's.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 22:51

>>20
I'd rather not post code from my work, but for a callback that takes three arguments, here's what it might look like:

    // call target selector with a, b, c
    assert(target);
    assert(sel);
    NSMethodSignature* signature = [[target class] instanceMethodSignatureForSelector:sel];
    assert([signature numberOfArguments] == 3);
    NSInvocation* invocation = [NSInvocation invocationWithMethodSignature:signature];
    [invocation setTarget:target];
    [invocation setArgument:&a atIndex:2];
    [invocation setArgument:&b atIndex:3];
    [invocation setArgument:&c atIndex:4];
    [invocation invoke];
}


So yeah, calling selectors is such bullshit it feels like a  joke by the language designers. NSObject has performSelector:withObject:withObject: and friends as a workaround, but that only helps if your callback has two arguments or less; usually one argument is the source object, so that doesn't give you much room for a rich callback function. Have fun writing the above for every callback. You can of course template it as a helper, if you like building your entire codebase as Objective-C++...

In general, I feel like this in Objective-C *all the time*. This is just one example of many, many things that are made far more difficult than they should be. Things that should be brain-dead simple are actually huge blocks of code.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 22:55

>>21
Just to drive this home a bit more, here's how you call the equivalent function pointer sel on a struct *target in a sane language:

sel(target, a, b, c);

Holy shit! Built-in language support for function pointers!

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 0:09

>>18
This is dumb, the only compiler that supports this is the one from digital mars.

It "works" fine on gcc for simple cases, i.e. the very same sort where you're just throwing some code together and don't want to write some insane template shit and/or a bunch of wrapper functions.

#include <stdio.h>
class Durr {
public:
    Durr() {}
    void show(int a, int b) { printf("%p %d %d\n", this, a, b); }
};
extern "C" {
    typedef int cb(void *, int, int);
    void run_cb(cb *f, void *arg, int n1, int n2) { f(arg, n1, n2); }
}
int main(int argc, char **argv) {
    Durr obj;
    obj.show(456, 789);
    run_cb((cb *) &Durr::show, (void *) &obj, 456, 789);
    return 0;
}

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 1:02

I love this thread. Keep posting. A+++++ would buy again.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 11:56

>>10
Methods don't have names. They just have named parameters.

No, methods have signatures. The signature of the example method you used is initWithFrame:style:, which is why you can't blindly reorder the parameters. The signature is used to look up the method at runtime. This is one of the places where the language's origin as a C frontend + runtime shines through, just as it does with C++. You also don't "call methods/member functions", you send messages to objects.

Still, being able to send the same message to some bunch of objects stored in an array without those objects having to be in any kind of inheritance relationship is massively awesome and far preferable to the kind of incomprehensible nonsense the average sepples project quickly turns into.

C++ exceptions should be compatible with Objective-C exceptions starting with the compiler based on GCC 4.2. I can't remember if you have to use the new runtime though (ie. is it also supported on IA32 and the like), and the feature may not be enabled by default.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 16:19

>>21
Why don't you just get the IMP and call it directly?

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Name: Over 1000 Thread 2009-11-23 22:30 Over 1000

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Name: Anonymous 2009-11-24 3:14

O lawd

Name: Over 1000 Thread 2009-11-24 3:14 Over 1000

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