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JOIN US!! persons who hate JAVA!!

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 15:11

Seriously though, you gotta be into S&M if you decide to develop something in Java yourself and you'll be doing part of the job.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 15:49

What I hated most is when 1st year programming is now all using Java because its simpler to the newbies.

Java was great on paper. A language that was OS independent. Of course Sun left out the fact is ran damn slow. Azerus is java coded and that runs slow as hell. I can see Java running on website application but full-fledged OS programs??

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 16:04

>>2
Wow everything you just said is the opposite of the truth.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 16:48

>>3
Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence...

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 17:34

It's certainly not easier to noobs; maybe it is if you're just printing hello world (although I can think of a dozen languages where this is simpler), but try getting them to interact with the API knowing what they do.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 21:55

>>5 isn't 'hello world' in php simply...
hello world

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 22:11

>>6
how informative

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 22:17

All the interaction with API is nessacry though in order to properly follow the OOP approach.

My gripe with Java is just the utter slowness. Yes it goes though an interpreter (hence why its OS independent) but its been so many years Sun should have tried to improve it.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 22:39

>>6
<?php echo 'Hello, world!' ?>

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-12 22:52

>>8
More like Java has a really fagged up approach (and the library sucks).

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 0:50

>>7 My point being, that would be n00b-level simplicity.
>>9 thanks

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 5:47

The problem with Java has nothing to do with any technical issues. It's faster than a good many languages since it is compiled to bytecode rather than just read from a script.

The problem is it's a poorly designed language that's no fun to program in. It claims to be an object oriented language but it's possibly the worst example of OO I've seen. Well C++ isn't too good at it either. It has a primitive type system that is incompatible with the object system. Wanna use ==? Go ahead and use it on your ints, but it's practically useless on your strings. Ditto switch/case. Wanna define new operators for your classes? Sorry. Want polymorphism? You can have it, but get ready for lots of disgusting type casts!

Java is pretty much singlehandedly responsible for giving OO a bad name. Try something like Ruby or Smalltalk if you don't believe me.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 7:35

the irony is that Java was originally designed for performance

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 7:40

>>13
It was designed as an embedded language for set-top boxen.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 8:54

>>6
PHP would be a better language to learn; it's indeed simpler, although for console applications only; you don't want to confuse newbs with web-related stuff when they barely understand how a computer works.


>>8
The API is overgeneralized. You don't have to define the frigging Universe and descend from it; too much generalization translates to unproductive, slow, harder to read, boring ass coding.

One of the reasons why Java is slow is its pitiful API design. One of Java's (massively retarded) premises is that it won't modify objects like String, but rather, it'll destroy them and create a new one upon operations. That's why, when you benchmark Java doing, say, integers, it's pretty decent, and you may even say it's just some 30% slower than C; but when you want to do anything serious and will for example manipulate text, it becomes painfully slow, slower than PHP, Perl, etc.: if you use Strings, you're doing it wrong, and you'll see string operations like concatenation are O(n+m) or worse. To do it properly, you should know the API perfectly, which takes further time and suffering, as you'll see you'll have to use all sorts of streams and other crap just to get around this shitty design, making your program an absolutely blOOated hell that's both unproductive and hard to maintain.

The bottom line is, stay away from Java.


>>9
That's if you enter PHP; but "hello world" in a file gone through PHP will just print "hello world".


>>12
Exactly. At least, C++ has some of what Java lacks. I like C++ not because it's a perfect OO implementation, but because it covers two paradigms - OO C++ and structured C++--, which suits most problems best as you have to solve different problems, some which are inherently OO and some that are inherently non-OO, and this is where fully OO languages fail.


>>14
But its standard API today looks anything but ready for that.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 10:20

>> One of Java's (massively retarded) premises is that it won't modify objects like String, but rather, it'll destroy them and create a new one upon operations.

Actually no. It only looks that way from the programmer's perspective, but behind the scenes Strings are managed with a factory class. This is a Good Thing. Compare this to C strings: because C strings are null terminated instead of knowing their own length, repeated concatenations become quadratic because you have to keep searching for the null char at the end of an increasingly large string.

In conclusion, your comments are based on ignorance, a trait I have come to expect from people who use stupid words like "blOOat". Java has enough lossage without needing to make shit up.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 13:36

>>16
Ooooh, I'm sorry Doctor Anonymous, I can't compare to your knowledge. Knowing Java's shitty string library is that shitty because it's implemented with an uppercase good thing makes it worth being slow.

Nevermind I could use one of the hundred string libraries freely available for C, which offer O(1) or similar complexity for most operations; or Perl strings, which are also inherently better than your Good Thing. But disregard this, Factory Classes are so Goth they Shit Bats.

BTW, it's lame to be using the standard library strings in C. What's your experience with the language, Doctor Anonymous?

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 14:18

>>17
Raving sarcasm is cruise control for proving you're not an ignoramus.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 14:47

>>18
Raving sarcasm is cruise control for proving you're not a troll.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 16:16

>>17 how many of those libraries are free to distribute and cross-platform? (serious question here, I honestly don't know).

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 18:23

>>1
You hate Java? Don't use it! Why waste your time anyway? I used to hate Perl but I learned it and I use it now to replace all my bash shell scripts and it's a great language for system administration.

Same thing for Java. I know professionals (real guys, not me) who use Java for embedded systems and they say it's a great language. I trust them.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-13 21:16

>>20
Many! BString ( http://bstring.sourceforge.net )  which is a simple, effective C library, and IBM's ICU library ( http://www-306.ibm.com/software/globalization/icu/index.jsp ) providing comprehensive Unicode support in a solid C++ library are two examples.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-15 9:38

hay guys can we be serious for a minute..




java sux lol

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-17 18:50

What features would a portable language need to be superior to Java?  For example, a language ideal for complex gaming on public computers.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-17 19:06

>>24
Besides how poor the language is, the whole platform is a bad idea. A strictly standard, comprehensive library, together with a strict standard, comprehensive language that's recompiled for your platform in either developer side or, through a high-level intermediate language, in the client's side, would be better.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-18 5:59

>>25
SDL

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-18 9:35

>>26
That's the spirit. C++-- minus parts of the standard library plus one of these C garbage collectors, a collection of handy defines, PCRE, ICU, SDL, and some higher level libraries for business stuff, GUIs, and other wankery wins. It's just as portable as Java, only dozens of times faster. It'd need some work if we want to get that transparently compiled from intermediate language in the client, but it'd be a much better, simpler, faster platform than Java.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-18 11:50

Personally I prefer --C++ because it looks more balanced.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-20 8:10

>>28
But that's strip it down then expand it; It's more logical to have ++C--, which first upgrades it to C++, then removes what you don't need or like.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-20 9:13

>>29
I'm aware of that but there's no such language as C--. I like to think of it as having implicit parentheses to defy the natural precedence, like so: --(C++)

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-20 9:20

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-22 21:08

>>23
win

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-22 22:13

Hmm, I don't know what to make of this. I'm actually trying to learn Java at the moment. Don't scream at me and tell me not to, I HAVE to for a university project.

It doesn't seem like such a bad language so far, a bit anal, I must admit, but nowhere near as painful as people make it out to be.

Although I must admit, it is a bitch to get up and running.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-23 10:50

>>33
University projects usually make it as if it weren't as terrible, but the second you have to deal with the shitload of classes the standard API is, you'll see.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-23 11:35

>>33
It starts off not-so-bad but then when you want to do multiple inheritance, you lose, when you want your primitives to behave as objects, you lose, when you want to pass functions as values, you lose.

I spent 3 years at uni doing almost nothing but Java, and by the end I honestly believed I no longer enjoyed programming. Then I took up Lisp and realised it was just Java I don't enjoy.

And yeah the standard library is a bit of a monster.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-23 19:54

standard library is a bit of a monster

And the award for understatement of the year goes to...!

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-27 21:07

I'm with you! The standard lib sucks and static typing is yyucky!!

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-28 6:24

>>37
So use Scheme. It's dynamically typed and has practically no standard library to speak of.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-28 8:58

>>38
Actually I've already got a fave language – Ruby. It's fast enough for everything I do and feels so incredibly natural to me.

Name: Anonymous 2005-08-28 9:05

>>39
Ruby is awesome. My favourite Ruby hack:
class Integer
    def d sides
        result = 0
        self.times do
            result += 1 + (sides * rand).to_i
        end
        result
    end
end

Guess what it's useful for :)

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