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Welfare vs Charity

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 7:54

This issue bothers me more than anything nowadays, so let's have debate.

So why should a person be FORCED to help someone else? If someone needs help, they can always ask for charity.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 8:31

Because once we choose to create a society, we agree to sacrifice some of our personal resources in the interests of greater availability of communal resources.  The next step is to decide which communal resources require the greatest investment.  Poverty is ubiquitous, and a drain on resources.  Whatever the reason, whether the poor have been unlucky, poorly educated, or are just stupid, lazy, or evil, they must be dealt with, and it has been proven over and over that personal and privately organized charity is inefficient and insufficient to the task.  Personally I believe that this is, in part, because people with lots of money have lots of money because they are not the most charitable people.  Politically I know that the bottom line on creating a minimum standard of living for the poor would be cheaper than addressing the problem in the half-assed, judgmental way we do now.
Just a few lines on an interesting topic.  Let's see if anyone else can post a position or an argument.  I'm not really interested in responding to people who are only capable of sniping at mine, or yapping about how it's all the fault of the "niggers" and the Jews.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 11:15

>>2
I agree with some of your points, but to say that charities and the churches and the missions that help the poor are inefficient and the government magically could not be inefficient is a silly notion. Welfare and the entitlement system in general actually makes people believe that there's no point in working for the fruits of their labor.

I have a cousin that just had a child about a year and a half ago who's currently on the dole of Welfare. She was born and raised into a well-off yuppie family, and she said that it's the best thing ever. That being on Welfare and raising a child is better than bothering to go to school and getting an education. It's a scary thing when you consider the state your helping friend, because then you become like a drone; like the state is an infallible entity that can do no wrong.

She still has a desire to go back to school, but I don't see how she will being busy raising a kid and all.

This ties in with other things that the government gets involved in. The Federal Reserve has been debasing the dollar ever since its creation, and lowering the standard of living over time. The incredible loss of manufacturing jobs in the United States over the decades certainly hasn't helped. And any that are still available go out to legal and illegal immigrants first who flock here because we provide incentives like free health care and things like that since the federal government has been telling the states that they have to provide services to illegal immigrants. But that's a topic for a different thread.

The entitlement system in general has done more harm than help for the poor. There are large abuses of the system, and the emergence of the "Welfare mother" that actually has kids just to claim Welfare benefits. I've read a story from a teacher who was teaching a class in the Bronx it was I believe, and some of the female Black students have felt there was nothing more noble in life than to become a Welfare mother. Just produce children to receive checks and food stamps. I, of course, don't think it's just the Black females, I'm sure there's plenty of Hispanic and Causation females who also abuse Welfare in a similar way (by just becoming "Welfare mothers").

I could go on and on with the whole fallacy of the entitlement system, but you get the idea. It sounds get on paper, "Yeah! A Welfare system, help the poor and less fortunate! Great!", but for the most part, the reality of it is quite different.

Don't get me wrong, it's terrible that there's poor out there and they certainly need help. I think a better solution is more charities, and non-profit organizations that are more localized. This way, they help the poor in their own neighborhoods and communities. How they'll find a job once they get on their feet is a whole 'nother story. As I said before most of the manufacturing and small time work is gone overseas, and if there are any left, it's snatched up by illegal and legal immigrants first, then the American may be able to work there. The keyword there being may.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 11:20

The people who herald charity over redistribution are usually the last people giving to charity in the first place.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 11:31

>>4
Not true. I have donated to some foundations myself. In small amounts, but I donated what I could. I have obligations to fulfill and they cost me money as well.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 11:59

OP here.

>Because once we choose to create a society, we agree to sacrifice some of our personal resources in the interests of greater availability of communal resources.

I do not agree with this. There is nothing that dictates that when you create a society you HAVE to create one with the element where the citizens have to sacrifice some of their personal resources for whatever cause. It can be the case, but it is not some essential element in creating a society.

And that is the topic I am trying to bring up. Why should this element, mandatory sacrifice of an individual's property for others (in this specific case, welfare) be included when creating a society? How exactly is this principle proper to human and therefore enrich human lives? So far from what I have observed and from studying history, it doesn't.

>Whatever the reason, whether the poor have been unlucky, poorly educated, or are just stupid, lazy, or evil, they must be dealt with,

Why must they be dealt with POLITICALLY? If a person feels sympathy for someone struggling, he is free to give the man struggling any amount of his own property as he wishes. But how exactly is it right to FORCE a man to give up his property to strangers he doesn't even know? If it's not right, then why should it be a political goal?

>and it has been proven over and over that personal and privately organized charity is inefficient and insufficient to the task

That is the same and only answer I have heard so far for my question from all over. But it does not address the main topic. The very topic is WHY should this "task", the task of "creating a minimum standard of living for the poor" be a political goal in the first place? How is this goal proper to human?

From my study of history and observation on present events, such a political goal is contradictory to human nature, and therefore, destructive.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 12:00

>>5
So goes the same old tired excuse, while people still starve and freeze.
Some efficiency.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 12:10

>>6

OP here again, a bit edit, meant to say "How is this political goal proper to human?" in that second last paragraph. Important clarification, missing the word "political"

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 12:40

>>6
Point one:  It is the essential element in any human society.  The sharing of burdens to increase the chances of group success. 
Point two:  Poverty is ubiquitous, and a drain on resources.  Charity and altruism are more desirable human characteristics than greed and being judgmental.
Point three:  Again. Poverty is ubiquitous, and a drain on resources.  And no one is "forced to give up his property to strangers he doesn't even know", except in that we are forced to belong to our society. Our participation in this society "forces" contribution to a general pool administered by our elected representatives.

It's a problem that's more expensive to ignore, yet many try.  They believe that if everyone works as hard as they, then poverty would disappear.  They are angry and want to blame poverty on the poor. They believe that the poor create their own suffering and that their suffering will "teach them a lesson"; perhaps even that poverty is a natural process that weeds undesirables out of society.  This is called social Darwinism.  It is not a humane philosophy. Is this what you meant by human nature?

P.S.: Your writing...  Is English your first language?  Not an insult.  Just curious.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 12:57

>>7
People still "starve and freeze" under the entitlement system we have. So to think that the situation has changed is just plain ignorance. Have you actually met people on Welfare? It's like they've lost all ambition in life. "It's OK, the state will take care of me." It sounds great on paper, but put into practice, it's a whole 'nother story.

This system of Welfare actually encourages them to stay at the same level they're at, because it discourages working and keeps the recipients poor and complacent. Not to mention the entitlement system can be subject to new unfair CPI index calculations that show there's a higher standard of living when in face, if calculated under the old CPI index, would show that the standard of living has actually gone down. This gives politicians the "go ahead" to take some money from the pot. As they do already with Social Security.

When government becomes big like this, it also invariably grows corrupt, and the poor stay poorer and all the while you hear the news claiming the joys and success of Welfare, when in reality it's a completely different picture.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 13:18

>>10
So says the school of Fox news punditry.  In turn I wonder what percentage of our budget goes to social welfare, vs. what percentage goes to stealing oil from brown people.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 13:42

>>11
So says the school of Fox news punditry.
I don't watch Fox news. Or any news media for that matter. Especially not to get any real objective information.

In turn I wonder what percentage of our budget goes to social welfare, vs. what percentage goes to stealing oil from brown people.
There certainly is a huge discrepancy. I don't agree with that either, since I support those who advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. That means not going into these endless wars, killing people for oil and stirring up trouble in the Middle East or elsewhere in the world.

Also, do you deny what I said about the entitlement system being subjected to CPI calculations that hurt and not help those already on the system? It's true and it's something no media channel will ever cover, including Fox news.

http://www.house.gov/htbin/blog_inc?BLOG,tx14_paul,blog,999,All,Item%20not%20found,ID=091102_3587,TEMPLATE=postingdetail.shtml

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/special-comment

So I'm willing to have a rational discussion. I voted for third party candidate in 2008, so I'm not a Republican nor a Democrat. I have criticized Bush and well as Obama for their actions domestically and overseas.

Name: OP 2010-01-05 15:29

>>9

>Point one:  It is the essential element in any human society.  The sharing of burdens to increase the chances of group success. 

I disagree. Humans are not social animals. I mean this in the sense that a person can live fine in the wild by himself, difficult, but can still live. A human is not bound by his physical nature to a social group, like ant or bee, which cannot physically survive apart from their group. A human is an independent, selfish entity. Each person's own life, success, and happiness is the moral goal dictated by the physical nature of the human race, and that should be his purpose.

The reason why a person would find living with other people beneficial as opposed to living alone is because of trade. This important mutually beneficial activity in all forms is what improve human lives and the reason why a rational person would choose to live among other humans in a proper society instead of by himself.

A rational person don't come to live in a society so he can carry another's baggage or have someone carry his. A society of that kind destroy lives.

Trade in values, not sharing of burdens, should be the essential element in any human society. That is what the physical nature of human demands.

>Point two:  Poverty is ubiquitous, and a drain on resources.  Charity and altruism are more desirable human characteristics than greed and being judgmental.

I disagree

Firstly, poverty is not ubiquitous. Human nature does not destine man to fail. No matter one is rich or poor, if he strives and make the right choices, he will produce more and more wealth. The poor will grow rich and the rich will grow richer.

Secondly, on poverty been a drain on resources. Whose resources?

Lastly, on "Charity and altruism are more desirable human characteristics than greed and being judgmental." Why is it more desirable? And desirable for who?

>Point three:  Again. Poverty is ubiquitous, and a drain on resources.  And no one is "forced to give up his property to strangers he doesn't even know", except in that we are forced to belong to our society. Our participation in this society "forces" contribution to a general pool administered by our elected representatives.

Yes, welfare is having individuals under threat of force from the government to give up their property to people they do not know. If you do not pay up the share of tax that cover the welfare policy, you can be persecuted by law.

As for you latter parts, it makes no sense what you are trying to say. You are forced but you are not forced..?

>It's a problem that's more expensive to ignore, yet many try.  They believe that if everyone works as hard as they, then poverty would disappear.

Poverty will disappear if people are free and is willing to work/produce and trade and is safe guarded from theft on all fronts. But unfortunately destructive political policies such as welfare keeps that from happening and breeds more poverty.

>They are angry and want to blame poverty on the poor. They believe that the poor create their own suffering and that their suffering will "teach them a lesson"; perhaps even that poverty is a natural process that weeds undesirables out of society.  This is called social Darwinism.  It is not a humane philosophy. Is this what you meant by human nature?

What I meant by "human nature" is just that, what humans are. Humans are organism that have a volitional faculty that grants them free will (unlike animals) to do or not do in all things. Lion survive by hunting with fangs/jaw. Humans survive by using the reason faculty in his mind to transform inanimate objects into personal properties he can use to sustain his life.

As for this social Darwinism, that's not it. A promising young man struggling in poverty would deserve charity. I would personally help him, out of self-interest, because it gives me personal pleasure to help those I believe who deserve my help. I would not give a cent to a hobo by the street who would use it to buy another bottle of liquor.

The bottom line is though, whether I help or not, and who I help, is rightfully entirely up to me, since what I give out is my property, wealth that I have earned myself. And this applies to all human beings.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 18:14

>>13
You are in error.  The human reproductive cycle and early development require an enormous social investment to succeed.  That a man, and I may add only a highly trained man, can walk into the wilderness and survive, does not change man's social nature.
The rest of your statements are equally erroneous, though it is fair for you to disagree with my placing the values of charity and altruism above all others.  This simply lets me know that you have a value system that is incompatible with mine, and therefore deem you an unsuitable member of my preferred society.  Guess we can't trade in values.  When you speak of trade you really mean commerce, and your words reek of objectivism.
Poverty is not ubiquitous. Where? 
Poverty would disappear if...   Yeah... poverty's just about how hard you work.  Fortune, random chance, intelligence, and even the weather play no part eh?  Nonsense. 
BTW, your inability to understand my statement about what we are "forced" to do may be due, in part, to a lack of context.  The contemporary global nationalist framework forces us to pick a nation to belong to.  Your individual human has no place left to go and be antisocial.  All of the land has been gobbled up, and armies built to hold it.  So like it or not we're stuck in this together until society collapses, or you're ready to fight for what you believe in.  So though we may be "forced" to belong to one of these societies, as I explained before social welfare is administered from willing (or willing enough) contributions to a general pool and administered by our elected representatives.
This is the real world. Your "values" are intellectual experiments.  One is kind, or unkind; generous or selfish; good or evil.  A wise man knows that judgment and blame are irrelevant, that there is only to help, or to refuse help.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-05 22:02

>>12
I find it difficult to believe that you don't watch "any news media", particularly since this very site could be classified as such.  Even still, our media ecologies are complex things these days, and "real objective information" is pretty damn hard to come by.  At any rate, your lack of exposure to Fox news has no bearing on the fact that your language is representative of its content.
I have argued for the moral, political, and logical reasons for public assistance(welfare, entitlements, whatever...)in another exchange.  As you have presented personal experiences and observations I shall respond in kind.  I have seen welfare recipients.  I am from a city with a large number of them.  A city that has rarely dropped out of the top five in murders in the US in the last 20 years.  It's even made #2.  But nobody beats Detroit.  And I lived among these people for many years.
I'm not a democrat or a republican either.  In fact, I expatriated myself 10 years ago, and after a lifetime of voting, never missing even the smallest election, and even voting by absentee ballot while in the military, I stopped.  While abroad I had the chance to observe poverty in many countries all over the world.  And here's what I've learned.  Poverty is the result of a combination of three factors, present in every case, in varying proportions.  1. Inadequate resources.  2. Inefficient distribution of resources. 3. What I'll call the X factor.  You see, I'm a lazy man.  Incredibly lazy.  I do very little, yet I am still able to live a comfortable and independent life.  Because in this wealthy society making money is easy.  I'd go so far as to say that if you can't make money in this society, then there's just plain something wrong with you. I don't know what it is, and I don't care.  I've seen poor people everywhere, and there always have been poor people, and poor people will be around until we figure out that X factor.  But we haven't figured it out yet(though education is a hell of a start).  So in the mean, the smart thing to do, the economical thing to do, the humane thing to do, is to feed and shelter these people.  'Cause it really is a minor thing, and the sooner we can agree on that simple thing, and deal with it, the sooner we can move on to fighting the corrupt, ambitious, greedy warmongers who currently own us.

Name: OP 2010-01-05 23:21

>>14

>You are in error.  The human reproductive cycle and early development require an enormous social investment to succeed.

Social investment? Which one do you mean, charity or trade? It makes a world of difference which one you meant.
 
>That a man, and I may add only a highly trained man, can walk into the wilderness and survive, does not change man's social nature.

There is a big difference between it cannot be done and it is difficult to be done. A human can survive alone, and that is enough to show that he is physically an independent being. The fact he receives an incalculable benefit trading within a society doesn't make him physically dependent on other human begins, like ants or bees.

>The rest of your statements are equally erroneous, though it is fair for you to disagree with my placing the values of charity and altruism above all others.  This simply lets me know that you have a value system that is incompatible with mine, and therefore deem you an unsuitable member of my preferred society.  Guess we can't trade in values.  When you speak of trade you really mean commerce

Charity and altruism cannot be the highest values. Before one can even start to think about charity or altruism, one have to produce the goods to give away. The ability of production is a higher value/virtue, since without that, charity or altruism cannot even exist.

You say you and I can't trade because we differ in moral values. That will be true if you practice altruism consistently. Because by then you will have no goods to trade with me, you have gave them all away. You won't be able to trade with anybody.

And as for trade, yes, commerce is one of them.

>Poverty is not ubiquitous. Where?

I assume you mean by "ubiquitous" as in it will always be there. I am saying that is not true since poverty is not something necessitated by human nature. If what you were trying to instead state the fact that poverty is in a lot of places at the present time, then that is a true statement.

>Poverty would disappear if...   Yeah... poverty's just about how hard you work.  Fortune, random chance, intelligence, and even the weather play no part eh?  Nonsense.

I disagree. Accidents plays a very small roll in the production of wealth. If good luck and random chance is the root of majority of fortunes of whatever kind or size, then there wouldn't be any demand for schools/trainings.

From the facts I observed, the major cause of today's poverty is the government, with policies such as welfare among others.

>BTW, your inability to understand my statement about what we are "forced" to do may be due, in part, to a lack of context.  The contemporary global nationalist framework forces us to pick a nation to belong to.  Your individual human has no place left to go and be antisocial.  All of the land has been gobbled up, and armies built to hold it.  So like it or not we're stuck in this together until society collapses, or you're ready to fight for what you believe in. 

Fair enough clarification. The only thing I have to object is the use of the word "antisocial". If a person is willing to trade with others, but not willing to carry their baggage, then I wouldn't say he is antisocial.

>So though we may be "forced" to belong to one of these societies, as I explained before social welfare is administered from willing (or willing enough) contributions to a general pool and administered by our elected representatives.

How do you know they are willing, or willing enough? Like I said, welfare is administered BY LAW, it's not something voluntary. That is the central and essential difference between welfare and charity. One is forced, the other is voluntary.

>This is the real world. Your "values" are intellectual experiments.

Society is a man made entity like a building or plane or medicine. And like all man made entities, it can be changed for the better, or for the worse. That's what the science of politics is all about.

If you say the present state of matter is "real" and unchangeable and my values are just "intellectual experiments", then I guess the thought of inventing a new drug such as penicillin to cure diseases or the thought of founding a new nation such as the US to pursue liberty are all just "intellectual experiments" and not sticking to what's "real" no?

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-06 3:47

>>15
Oh, I agree with many of your points. What I meant by 'not watching any news media' is the news media presented in newspapers, radio and television. I should have been more detailed in that context.

There's no doubt that there's poor people that need help. I'm not saying they shouldn't be helped; not at all. But we seem to have different philosophical differences in how this should be achieved. You seem to prefer that the government can do this, where I believe that missions, charities, churches and whatnot can do this just fine. What I'm arguing is that when government is doling out these services, they are cheating the people (especially Social Security recipients), from getting the assistance that they were promised. I was pointing out government can screw up this process as I provided the two links in my previous post to how over the decades the methodology of how CPI prices are calculated and the Social Security and Welfare trust funds are depleted by politicians using the money for all these wars instead of going out to senior citizens that were promised this to.

In fact, Social Security checks from the government should be nearly double than what they are now. It's corrupt, it's immoral, and it's utterly destroying the lives of people. So what can we do? My argument is there needs to be more charities and missions helping these people on a local level. There are, but what is there is not enough. And you're right, if we weren't in all these endless wars, instead of helping our own, things would be much better. War is a goddamn corporatist racket, and it's disgusting and immoral. If there were any justice in this world, all presidents who advocated interventionism overseas would be tried by the Supreme Court.

So yes, I largely agree with you, with the exception of how a solution should be accomplished.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-06 4:21

I only trust politicians who recognise welfare needs to be well spent or it will backfire, not politicians who's supporters consist of ghetto trash welfare queens who scream hysterically about how they are victims while fat rolls out of their $150 pumps.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-06 9:19

>>16
Charity or trade?  I meant neither.  I was repeating a dude named Aristotle.  And another guy named John Locke.  And most significantly I was stating an obvious anthropological and sociological fact. 
If you keep stretching this far you're gonna pull a muscle.
I'm not gonna respond to your equivocations.  Unless you're a troll, it's beneath you, and since a careful re-reading will show that I have already clearly addressed all of your concerns, I have to end this here.  It's time for you to put Atlas Shrugged back on the shelf.  I keep it with the other philosophies presented in works of fiction(Camus, Sartre, Hesse, Kafka).  I keep it right next to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and all of those between real philosophers, and scriptures. 
Then you should think about this.  Whatever we create is a reflection of ourselves.  Poverty will exist until we create a benevolent society, and we remain incapable of creating a benevolent society because most of the active members of our contemporary society are more selfish than generous. They abuse reason by using it to argue for selfishness, calling it "enlightened self interest" and deny the sole characteristic that makes us truly human, truly humane.  Compassion.  My value system  is simple.  I believe that what I believe is more important than my life, and that my first duty is to protect the weak.  Now you tell me what you believe, and let's do the math.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-06 9:46

>>17
Then we pretty much agree on everything.  Regarding the CPI; it's not really covered because it doesn't have to be.  It's common knowledge.  Nobody has to tell anybody who makes a cent of money that that money ever maintains it's value over time.  Inflation is the only constant in this ridiculous primitive economic system we're chained to. 
And the crux?  Private vs. Public?  You're right.  The government fucks up everything it touches.  But if private charities can handle the problem, then why don't they?  Is it your assertion that if all of the taxes that go to social assistance programs were eliminated, that our "missions, charities, churches and whatnot" would then have enough money to handle the problem?  Come on.  I don't approve of the way our current governments are handling the problem, but I see that as being directly related to the fundamental problems in the systems.  I still maintain that one of the main functions of any system of government that a society chooses is to provide for those who are, for whatever reason, incapable of providing for themselves.  Especially now that these god damned monsters have denied us all the option to abstain.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-06 21:29

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-06 21:56

>>20
Regarding the CPI; it's not really covered because it doesn't have to be.  It's common knowledge.  Nobody has to tell anybody who makes a cent of money that that money ever maintains it's value over time.
Right, but as I was saying before, if the government stuck with the old methodology of how it calculated CPI, then Social Security checks would be nearly double what they are. And Social Security recipients would be much better off if they did. And yes, inflation also plays a part in this. It's like a second tax, if you will. And Fed chairman Ben Bernanke even admitted this on one occasion.

Since they haven't stuck with the old methodology of calculating CPI, this has created a big problem for Social Security recipients. I'm sure they've done the same to the Welfare and Medicare/Medicaid trust funds as well. Point is, big government is corrupt and they couldn't help the poor if their lives depended on it.

Name: OP 2010-01-07 6:35

>>19

You obviously have no clue about the source of wealth and the cause of the present state of poverty.

Wealth don't grow on trees or drop from the sky and appear randomly in the world. It is produced by people, through hard work. Every person have their own goals to pursue in life, and they work hard to achieve it. If someone is in poverty, it might not be entirely be their own fault, but it sure as hell isn't anybody else's fault unless they stole from him.

The very implication of welfare is that people who are richer must always have somehow stole from those that are poorer. And that unstated implication is what serves as the moral justification for welfare. The people who believe this have no clue about the source of wealth.

The function for wealth is such:

(raw material) x (invention/innovation) = wealth

Raw material, like oil, is static, so this factor cannot change. What changes is technology (invention/innovation..etc.). A simple example would be a new engine that can pump out twice the amount of power than the old ones from the same amount of gasoline. Therefore, more wealth is produced from the same amount of raw materials.

And what's the source of technology? The human mind.

That is the source of wealth. People (baring criminals) MAKES their fortune. Without them, their wealth wouldn't have existed in the world.

When you take WITHOUT CONSENT the wealth created by one man and give it to another, you are essentially destroying both of their lives. It is a wrong political action and one of the consequence is that it will act to discourage the person who created the wealth to create more, and it will act to discourage the person who need wealth to create them. You are essentially going against justice by rewarding bad choices and punishing good ones. Another important consequence is that welfare steals private wealth that could have gone into investments that would have created many more times its original worth of new jobs, thus decreasing employment rate from what could have been. Those are just some of reasons why why welfare never solves poverty, but in fact, breeds more.

As for the cause of present state of poverty, when I say if a person is in poverty, it might not entirely be his own fault, but it sure as hell isn't anybody else's, UNLESS THEY STOLE FROM HIM, there is somebody that steals from the poor, the government.

There are many examples, welfare been one of them. I'll choose another one, the minimum wage. When a person is willing to work for $7 a hour on a certain job and a employer is willing to hire people for that job on that wage but no more, and the government steps in and says, "Nope, you gotta pay him more or no employment.", what do you think happens? That person is robbed of his job and the employer is robbed of an employee. Translate this to the national level and you will have a rise in unemployment followed by a rise in poverty.

There are many other examples I can list, but the fact is the government is the biggest cause of today's poverty. On the issue of welfare, there is no justification for welfare both morally and practically. Morally it is wrong and the consequence practically is that it does not solve poverty but causes more. You say your value system is simple, and that you choose your first duty as the protection for the weak. Then know that what you are arguing for does no such thing but ironically causes more suffering for the weak.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-07 14:45

>>23
The function for wealth is such:

(raw material) x (invention/innovation) = wealth

Gee, that’s an interesting “function”.  Let’s have a look.  Raw material = Resources right?  Does that include human resources?  I’m asking because I don’t see any factor representing actual work by people in there.  Perhaps you meant to include it under invention.    Cause it’s kind of important.  If it’s represented by “raw material” then you’ve just equated people with any number of raw materials, let’s say, meat.  People are meat eh?  But no.  You obviously meant to include it in invention/innovation.  It’s a pretty simple formula.  But if the work required exceeds the production capabilities of a lone individual he will be forced to enter into agreements with other people.  Damn people.  Now they’re gonna be wanting a share of the innovators “wealth”.  How much do they deserve?  Let’s look at what wealth is.  Personally, I’d have to say that the “function” for wealth is:  (commodities necessary for survival)–(commodities on hand).    You might argue “that’s not wealth, that’s profit, or a simple surplus” and you would be right to, because your society’s definition of wealth includes influence and power over other peoples’ lives, but there are a few little problems with this.   As humans we know that power and responsibility are at least joined, if not one and the same.   Assuming the wealthy and powerful are responsible for that which they have built around them, they must accept responsibility for the poor, for poverty is a byproduct of their creation, and, once again, a drain on resources.  Where there is wealth, there are scavengers.  It is the way of nature.  If there is a river, all will try to drink.  The wealthy and powerful might have the right to exile it’s scavengers, but that’s become impossible since the wealthy and powerful have claimed that they require all of the worlds habitable lands for their purposes, and expend great resources in defending their claim.  So they’re stuck with them.  Responsible for them. 
Then there’s time.  It would be a different world if everyone generated their wealth through your formula.   But it doesn’t really work that way.   Innovators create great mechanisms for generating wealth, and focus great power for a time.  Then they die, and the wealth and power, still highly focused, passes into the hands of managers.  Managers whose only abilities and capabilities exist to maintain and increase the wealth.    Most often, these “heirs” gain access to the power by simple proximity.  They belong to the same culture, socioeconomic group, went to the same schools, lived in the same places, and mostly, were in the same family.  Practically everything they have was handed to them because they were in the right place, at the right time, and close to the right person or small group of people.  And talk about a sense of entitlement!    That they have no actual physical skills is darkly amusing.  The true source of wealth is cut off, entropy takes over, and slowly, eventually, they again begin the vicious circle that is the foundation of your system.  The suffering poor are motivated to improve their circumstances, create in order to relieve it and round and round we go.  And there’s the truth of it; you have been trained to both fear and love suffering.  You believe that it’s the primary source of human motivation.  It is you who relegate us to the status of ants and bees. 
But we are human beings.  Our greatest suffering is not physical.  It’s emotional, philosophical, intellectual, and spiritual anguish that leaves the greatest mark on us.  And it’s this suffering that motivates our greatest advancements, and these usually in opposition to “natural” progression.   We cure diseases, we learn that it’s wrong to try to own other people, that it’s wrong to kill whole groups of people, we develop technologies to facilitate better communication, and we work to improve our community.  You believe that you work for yourself, and that somehow the product of that work is yours alone to distribute as you see fit.  This would be fine if you were a mountain man, but you’re not.  You choose to live among the rest of us, and in return, we expect you to bear your share of the responsibility.  Yet you cling to the idea that the physical component of suffering is not only our greatest social motivator, but that it’s justice. Why?  In your case it’s because it’s what you’ve been taught to believe, but the root of the problem is simple primal fear.  Something less than human within you that creeps up and pushes you to desire more than you can ever foreseeably need, because tragedy may strike at any time.  Because at any time you may need all of the resources at your disposal just to survive, and damn the rest.  You divide to conquer.  You divide society into the “government” and the “market” and attempt to use the government as a tool of the market, rather than the reverse, preferring the system that addresses our desires,  because the greedy, obsessed with their own desires, are skilled at manipulating the desires of others,  rather than that which represents our ideals, and use instruments(like currency) to further stratify the population, all in the hopes that you can protect yourself, putting more and more bodies between you and that which you fear.  But humans are stronger together.  And to be human is to be courageous and generous.  You claim that feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and sheltering the homeless “destroys families”.  I think that starving, disease, and freezing does more harm. 
Just a few more words.  At this point you may be thinking that I’m a communist.  I’m not.  I can envision a society that meets the basic needs for all without depriving individuals of their rights or the product of their own efforts.  But I can see this because I have been given the opportunity to see the flaws in the two main ideologies most people’s minds are trapped in.   I have arguments equally as scathing for those who claim to be on the “left”, but I haven’t addressed them because that’s not the direction you’re coming from.   I’ve written this behemoth tl;dr in support of the idea that it’s time to end this ridiculous poverty problem, that it’s the responsibility of society and it’s chosen government, and that if individuals were capable of rising to the challenge through charity it would have already been eliminated.   I haven’t said how, and though I know, that knowledge is irrelevant as long as there are people like you, who somehow believe that the poor are just getting what they deserve; that it’s a natural and necessary state of being.  Now go learn to be a man, instead of a business man.  Learn that what is in your head is more important than what is in your pockets.  Quit spitting out your poorly understood impressions of other peoples obsolete and discredited ideas.  Learn that honorable skills involve growing food, building shelter and tools, and scholarship.   Men whose “work” consists of trading and distributing the product of those skills and that work are like the parasites that infect the brains of, and change the behavior of their hosts.  And realize that these parasites(lawyers, accountants, salesmen, and corporate managers and officers among others) are still far too numerous among us.
I guess things aren't as fuckingobvious as you thought, 'eh?
At least this time you tried to present a position, instead of sniping at selected points in my posts.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-07 15:01

>>24

Innovators create great mechanisms for generating wealth, and focus great power for a time.  Then they die, and the wealth and power, still highly focused, passes into the hands of managers.  Managers whose only abilities and capabilities exist to maintain and increase the wealth.    Most often, these “heirs” gain access to the power by simple proximity.  They belong to the same culture, socioeconomic group, went to the same schools, lived in the same places, and mostly, were in the same family.

That's anti-SEMANTIC
http://www.mailstar.net/burnham.html
http://mailstar.net/ginsberg.html
... u honky

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-07 16:35

>>25
I'm so glad you pointed this out!  Though my use of the word managers was my own, and my only familiarity with Burnham is what may have slipped into my mind from our intellectual collective consciousness; our shared media ecology, it illustrates an important point.  In a seeming paradox I rail against the dangers of the state and socialism, yet I seem to be arguing in support of "government welfare".  Mea culpa. I do not believe that they are in opposition.  I'm what I'd call a true conservative.  Now I know that sounds pretty much like those who say that they are true christians or true americans.  It's meaningless.  So I'll say this.  I believe that a conservative conserves resources, and people are the greatest resource.  And I'll address your odd accusation of anti-semitism.  A conservative believes in, forgive me, calling a spade a spade, so I'll say this to the Jews:
Hi Jews.  Wow, you guys sure have a lot of money.  And like Ben said(the Jewish intellectual scholar who wrote the article at the other link you provided)you're disproportionately represented all over the place.  But you know what, Jews? I know that that's because your culture is a whole hell of a lot more focused on study than ours.  And though you're disproportionately represented, I know that us white folks are still the vast majority.  And that it's our game.  Smith(as in Adam) ain't a Jewish name.  So if I don't like something you're doing, it's kind of incumbent on me to come up with a better idea, huh?  I know that you guys have managed to fit in and prosper in every society you've ever been thrust into, following the many pogroms and diasporas, and though, like the Scot's, you don't have a reputation for personal generosity, you do have a reputation for advocating advances in human rights.  So I guess thanks is in order.  And we'll get back to you once we have a better idea.  And we're sure you'll do the same.  BTW Jews, I am aware of the fact that your most commonly held view of Zionism, cyclic, is not as malignant as the usual apocalyptic christian sort. 
So where were we?  That's right... let's feed the hungry people.

Name: OP 2010-01-08 7:57

>>24

Let me clarify, the function I presented represents the wealth generated by an individual, not the net sum of a collective. As for work and time, I didn't put it in because under my function that factor is static/solidified (assuming the individual is healthy and work for the same amount of period). The purpose of this is to illustrate the reason why some people can produce more and become richer than others when everyone is healthy and worked for about the same amount of time. This is also essentially the very purpose of this entire function. And the purpose of me presenting it is to show that the childish misguided notion that people become successful somehow does so by "stealing" from others, is incorrect. There is nothing wrong with helping people, but those who became successful surely as hell doesn't OWN anybody anything if they brought and paid every step of the way to their fortune.

Now, if an individual happens to have people working under him, it changes nothing. All that happens is a trade, the individual exchange his own wealth that he saved up as wage and trade it with the worker for his work. There is no "sharing" anywhere. Both side produces values and voluntarily trade with each other. An inventor owns the whole of his invention (assuming he didn't sell it) even when he had employed workers. Whatever the workers contributed to his invention he traded for it with wage, and that contribution becomes the inventor's through the trade.

As for how much do they [workers] deserve? What wage is fair? That's up to the law of supply and demand and it's their (employee and employer) own business to barter it out. The employee is free to seek other businesses who can offer a better wage, and the employer is free to seek out other workers who have better qualifications. No one is forced to hire or work, it's all voluntary, that's what a free country is all about and basic econ101.

>Personally, I’d have to say that the “function” for wealth is:  (commodities necessary for survival)–(commodities on hand).    You might argue “that’s not wealth, that’s profit, or a simple surplus” and you would be right to,

That erroneous function of yours is not anything. For it to be even considered some sort of surplus you will have to switch it backwards.

And yes, you are damn right in saying I would point out that your function has nothing to do with wealth. Wealth is the commodity themselves, and your function says absolutely nothing about how they are produced, and more importantly, why can some individuals produce more than others in the same amount of time under the same conditions.

>because your society’s definition of wealth includes influence and power over other peoples’ lives, but there are a few little problems with this.

I'm not right in saying that your obviously bad function is wrong because of some nonsense you wrote here. I am right in saying that because your function IS wrong and have absolutely nothing to do with the production of wealth nor explain why some man can become more wealthy than others.

>As humans we know that power and responsibility are at least joined, if not one and the same.   Assuming the wealthy and powerful are responsible for that which they have built around them, they must accept responsibility for the poor, for poverty is a byproduct of their creation, and, once again, a drain on resources.

So, let me spell it out here, you are saying the rich has a responsibility to take care of the poor because poverty is the byproduct of people becoming..wealthy? You are essentially saying wealth production produces poverty as a byproduct, and your argument for that is...

-Where there is wealth, there are scavengers.  It is the way of nature.  If there is a river, all will try to drink.  The wealthy and powerful might have the right to exile it’s scavengers, but that’s become impossible since the wealthy and powerful have claimed that they require all of the worlds habitable lands for their purposes, and expend great resources in defending their claim.  So they’re stuck with them. 
Responsible for them.

So if we cut all the chitchats, essentially what you are saying is that the rich became rich because they hogged all the raw materials and the poor became poor because all the raw materials were hogged by the rich. And, by your argument, if that's the case, then the rich have a moral responsibility to take care of the poor because it is the rich that caused the poverty. Am I getting it right?

To believe that rich became rich on a free market because they hogged all of a certain resource, and thus somehow creating a monopoly and chocking supply so they can sell it at unprecedented high price, is just plainly mistaking. People can try to "hog" raw materials, but this feat of buying resource rich lands cannot create a monopoly that allow him to set the price of his resoruce to whatever he wants. In economics and in business, there is always substitute for any given product/resource, and new substitute are free to be made though invention/innovation. If a person tries to hog resources and actually succeeds in the expensive and risky venture of buying the majority of the land containing that resource, he still cannot set the selling price of his resource above what is dictated by the law of supply and demand, or else people will start to buy or create cheaper substitute instead and leave him out of business. This is basic econ101. Monopoly cannot exist on a free market, and certainly not how fortunes are created in a free market.

Like I said before, for an individual to produce more wealth than before thus to get rich, he has to think up new and better ways of doing things. Fortunes are not made through cornering existing market. Fortunes are made when someone creates a new market that never existed before though invention/innovation. That is the source of wealth.

On to the point that this act of wealth creation somehow drive people into poverty, that is just plain nonsense.

>>>>>>Your second paragraph<<<<<<<<<

Whatever invention/innovation is made, it belong solely to the inventor/inventor. Since it's his, it's also his right to give/share to whomever he likes. If what you are trying to get at here is that the people he shared it with happens to be incompetent and only got wealthy because of the luck this incompetent "manager" had by acquainting himself with the inventor, then I say that could happen, but if the "manager" person is truly incompetent, then this gift is just a drop down the drain and whatever wealth he achieved though the inventor's mistaken generosity will be short lived.

>That they [the manager] have no actual physical skills is darkly amusing.  The true source of wealth is cut off, entropy takes over, and slowly, eventually, they again begin the vicious circle that is the foundation of your system.

Like I said, if this "manager" person is truly incompetent, his wealth will be short lived. As for the second part about some vicious circle, you better clarify what the hell you are talking about, so far it looks like nonsense babbling.

On your last statement:
>The suffering poor are motivated to improve their circumstances, create in order to relieve it and round and round we go.  And there’s the truth of it; you have been trained to both fear and love suffering.  You believe that it’s the primary source of human motivation.  It is you who relegate us to the status of ants and bees.

Really now? I believe that the relief of suffering is the primary human motivation? Aren't you mixing your own belief with mine?

What I believe, and what the facts about men show, is that human are organisms with free will. Unlike animals, we are not born with a purpose, we choose our purpose in life. The relief from suffering can be a primary motivation for a person if that individual choose that goal as his purpose. But this choice of goal is certainly not necessitated by human nature. And the avoidance of suffering is certainly not what brings people out of poverty or allow them to achieve greatness.


>>>>>>Your last paragraph<<<<<<<<<

>But we are human beings.  Our greatest suffering is not physical.  It’s emotional, philosophical, intellectual, and spiritual anguish that leaves the greatest mark on us.  And it’s this suffering that motivates our greatest advancements, and these usually in opposition to “natural” progression.

Fucking wrong. You are telling me that individuals who made great fortunes or/and in advancement of technology, people who made the car, the plane, the rocket, the telephone, the computer, the google..etc. are motivated by suffering? And you say I AM the one who view human as animals?

Those people's goal is the pursuit of happiness, not the avoidance of suffering. What motivated them is AMBITION. It's the thought "this is not good enough, I can do better". And they did.

Name: OP 2010-01-08 7:58

>You believe that you work for yourself, and that somehow the product of that work is yours alone to distribute as you see fit.  This would be fine if you were a mountain man, but you’re not.  You choose to live among the rest of us, and in return, we expect you to bear your share of the responsibility.

Clearly stating your premises, I like that. But what you just said is dead wrong.

The concept you are having trouble with or dismissing entirely is TRADE. I addressed this in my second paragraph this post. I'll address it again. What ever contribution a worker made towards the final product, he TRADES that contribution, which is his, with the wage paid to him, which belongs to the employer. After this exchange with all the workers, the employer owns all of the contribution the workers made, which sums up to the final product. Therefore, as long as the employer paid all his dues, the final product is his in whole, and by right, just as the worker is with the wage paid to him. This applies to all business relationships. The only responsibility anyone have in a society to others is to pay up for what he buys and to own up to contracts he made, that's it.

>Yet you cling to the idea that the physical component of suffering is not only our greatest social motivator, but that it’s justice. Why?  In your case it’s because it’s what you’ve been taught to believe, but the root of the problem is simple primal fear.  Something less than human within you that creeps up and pushes you to desire more than you can ever foreseeably need, because tragedy may strike at any time.  Because at any time you may need all of the resources at your disposal just to survive, and damn the rest.

Haha, quite the e-psychiatrist are we? First of all, like I said, suffering is not whats motivates individuals to achieve greatness. That is what YOU believe. What I believe motivates individuals to achieve greatness or to rise above poverty, is ambition (this is not good enough, I can do better), and greed (this much wealth is not large enough, I can produce more). And the reason why people choose to be ambitious or greedy is not because they want to make more and better things so they can save them up to for some tragedy that may or may not come and so avoid suffering, but because as human begins, we become happy when we are able to achieve more than before. That is their goal, the pursuit of happiness.

>You divide to conquer.  You divide society into the “government” and the “market” and attempt to use the government as a tool of the market, rather than the reverse, preferring the system that addresses our desires,  because the greedy, obsessed with their own desires, are skilled at manipulating the desires of others,  rather than that which represents our ideals, and use instruments(like currency) to further stratify the population, all in the hopes that you can protect yourself, putting more and more bodies between you and that which you fear.

On your first point. If you are trying to point out that there are businessmen out there that seeks government invention into the market to bar out competitors so they can create a monopoly (which is the only way a monopoly CAN be created), then yes, there are people out there like that and this do happen. But those people are not whom I vouch for. They are not motivated by ambition, by the pursuit of happiness. Those men are motivated by fear, the fear of someone who is more ambitious than they are to come up with a better product than what they currently have. And the government have no right to intervene in the economy. If the government had acted it's proper role and separates itself from the economy (like from the church) and leave a truly free market, then this can never happen.

As for the rest, I have absolutely no idea what are you trying to say, so you better step up your act and state your argument clearly, or else you won't get a reply.

>You claim that feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and sheltering the homeless “destroys families”.

Really now, quote me. What I said was taking the property of one person, WITHOUT HIS CONSENT, and giving it to another, acts to destroy both.

Did I say giving charity to a hungry or sick person who you think deserves your help somehow "destroy families"? Stop twisting my points to help your own convenience. It is dishonest and low.

>Just a few more words.  At this point you may be thinking that I’m a communist.  I’m not.  I can envision a society that meets the basic needs for all without depriving individuals of their rights or the product of their own efforts.

If you are arguing for welfare instead of charity, then you certainly are depriving individuals of their rights and the product of their effort. And by arguing for welfare, that makes you a communist on principle, the only difference is in magnitude.

>I’ve written this behemoth tl;dr in support of the idea that it’s time to end this ridiculous poverty problem, that it’s the responsibility of society and it’s chosen government, and that if individuals were capable of rising to the challenge through charity it would have already been eliminated.

Wrong. First, on your errourous notion that it is the responsibility of the government or society to eliminate poverty.

Human begins have free will and are fallible.

Human begins have to work/think, by choice. Human begins are not guaranteed success by nature even if he choose to work/think.

Nobody can make another person who chose not to work work. Nobody can give another person 100% chance of success on a venture/work he is going to undertake.

That is the way of things between man and nature. Government or society are just made up of people, of other human begins. Grouping them up into entities doesn't give them magic power to change reality.

Because of this fact that humans are volitional and fallible, the best a proper government can do, and should do, is to protect individual rights. Even though no human begins can make another chose to work, what the government can do is say, "no body else has the right to bar you from working if you do chose to work in this society". Even though no human begins can guarantee another's success, what the government can do is say "if you do succeed in your work, then whatever you produced is yours, by right".

That is the responsibility and the best a government CAN do for poverty (for everyone for that matter), and should do. To make sure nobody steals or rob one another and every interaction between individuals are voluntary.

As an individual on the other hand. If you make it your goal to give out charity, no one will have the right to stop you from giving other people anything.

Second, on your erroneous notion that charity CURES poverty. There is nothing wrong with charity and you are in your right to give people whatever you own. It helps, especially if you lend help to the right people. But if you think that giving away goods is somehow the ultimate CURE to poverty, think again.

The point is though, government cannot solve poverty, it can only make poverty worse if it choose to violate other's individual right by taking their property without consent and giving it to the poor based on their need.

>I haven’t said how, and though I know, that knowledge is irrelevant as long as there are people like you, who somehow believe that the poor are just getting what they deserve; that it’s a natural and necessary state of being.

Know my ass, so far you demonstrated you don't know half of what you are talking about. Like I said before numerous times, and I'll say it again: If someone is in poverty, it might not be entirely their own fault, but it sure as hell isn't anybody else's unless they stole from him. All your erroneous argument arguing to the contrary has been shot down in flames in this post. You got something new to say other than twisting my words for your convenience, then bring it out.

>Now go learn to be a man, instead of a business man.  Learn that what is in your head is more important than what is in your pockets.  Quit spitting out your poorly understood impressions of other peoples obsolete and discredited ideas.  Learn that honorable skills involve growing food, building shelter and tools, and scholarship. Men whose “work” consists of trading and distributing the product of those skills and that work are like the parasites that infect the brains of, and change the behavior of their hosts.  And realize that these parasites(lawyers, accountants, salesmen, and corporate managers and officers among others) are still far too numerous among us.

I am not a businessman, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you should take your own advice. Use your head and go learn some more about economics and business. Because so far your previous post and this one shows you don't even know the fucking basics. It's just goddamn down right embarrassing. Do you even know what a business is and what businessmen do? How did you think people who grow food knows how much to grow? How much they should sell their food for? Where to buy their supplies and how much? Because guess what *gasp* the people who grow food are BUSINESSMEN and farming is a goddamn BUSINESS. Same shit for people who construct houses and produce tools, they are all goddamn BUSINESSES, and if the workers themselves don't have business skills to do the required jobs, they hire professional businessmen.

I am hesitant to call you a retard since you can at least write English correctly, but what you wrote proves you are exactly, a retard.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-08 14:24

I HAVE NOT read through all of the posts above, though I did read most of the earlier ones and kind of skimmed through the rest of them.  However, when my mother and father divorced, my mother took my sister and I and we moved from low income apartment to low income apartment.  My mother couldn't get a job because she had to take care of us, and she couldn't send us to a daycare because she had to have had a job first to do that.  We lived off of Welfare checks and food stamps for about 5 years.  We even ended up living in a homeless shelter for about 6 months.  Anyway, once my sister and I entered school my mother was able to work a job while we were there.  Fast forward 12 years and now my mother has re-married and we're a typical middle class family.  I'm going to college and not receiving much financial assistance from the government or my family, resulting in me having loans up my ass when I graduate in a couple years.  Needless to say, we were once dependent on the state, and now we aren't anymore.  While I know some people do abuse the system, the ones who don't shouldn't be punished.  If it wasn't for the help of the government during those times I don't think we ever would have turned out to be the socially productive people we are today.  Perhaps this means they need to have better knowledge of who is receiving welfare, and keep an eye on them to ensure they spend it intelligently, and impose some form of ramification if they aren't.

Name: OP 2010-01-09 6:24

>>29

The welfare check isn't the thing that got you out of poverty, your mother's hard work and your own ambition to make a better life did.

The fact that welfare played a role in your success isn't itself a justification for its existence. The End doesn't justify the Means. Have you asked yourself where did the government got the money to pay for welfare? They were hard earned cash belonging to other individuals which were taken from them without consent.

Need isn't a right. Just because someone might need more wealth doesn't not give him the right to another's property. You say "While I know some people do abuse the system, the ones who don't shouldn't be punished." If the government lock you up in a cell, that would be a punishment. How exactly are you punished when you stop receiving money that was never yours to begin with?

Charity is the only right way to lend other people a hand, because the exchange of wealth is voluntary and with consent. I am not condemning you for accepting welfare checks since you are forced to pay tax too. But you should never support it.

Name: 29 2010-01-09 7:07

>>30
Have you asked yourself where did the government got the money to pay for welfare? They were hard earned cash belonging to other individuals which were taken from them without consent.
Not the person you're replying to, but this is true somewhat. Most of the money that goes to our entitlement programs is a combination of borrowing from foreign nations, and whatever phantom money that the Federal Reserve creates out of thin air to continue our consumption.

Our tax dollars barely (if at all) go to entitlement programs like welfare. This of course doesn't make it any less damaging.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-09 20:59

So on goes the sniping and the absolute avoidance of the two main points that I have reiterated again and again:
1.  Why so selfish?  The OP has even admitted that greed is a principle motivator in his system.  The system that has functioned for a long time, but has never managed to feed the millions of starving people in the world, and what's worse, driven us to a precipice over which is a world of death and starvation the likes of which is unparalleled in written history.  and
2.  Taxes are never taken from anyone without their consent.  We are not forced to pay taxes.  Long before we're faced with taxes we are forced to align ourselves with a contemporary nation.  The world the current economic system was designed to work for no longer exists.  When "economics" was developed there were still frontiers.  There was still an out. The antiquated basic economic liturgy that I keep hearing is based on an open system with unlimited opportunity.  Unlimited resources.  It's the 21st century, not the 18th.  All of the worlds available resources, at least those accessible by individuals or even small groups of people, are spoken for.  Now we are in a closed system, and the idea that opportunity has remained constant is ridiculous.  Imagine 100 people locked in a room with 100 gallons of water.  To represent the current distribution of wealth in America we shall give 42 gallons to one person, 27 gallons to 4 people.  11 gallons to 5 people, and 12 gallons to 10 people.  The other 80 people will have to split the remaining 8 gallons. You would have us believe that the 10 people who have 80 gallons earned them, deserve them, and that the best way to keep the system working is to tell everyone that someday they may have 42 gallons to themselves.  You show them photos of these people bathing and swimming and squandering the water, and give empty dreams to those dying of thirst.  But like the witchcraft you call economics, it's a lie.  There is no more water.  Some of the water barons even have the nerve to sell water that doesn't exist.  Nice system.  Run on greed.  Thanks, Mr. Gekko.
You operate from a 230 year old playbook and call me retarded.  You and your greedy cohorts are retarding the progress of humanity.  Now I suppose you're gonna want to go back to sniping at selected points, so I'll address what should be your first bullshit objection.  That I'm not taking technological innovation into account.  "Hey", you might say, "the PC was invented by two guys in a garage, and now their among the wealthiest people in the world!", but you're  forgetting a few things.  The technology that led to the PC could only have been developed by governments and the research facilities of large corporations dependent on governments and other large corporations.  Because of the corporate climate created by the current economic system, this kind of innovation is rare.  Certainly significant, but certainly not the norm.  And most significantly, people are still fucking homeless and hungry!  When is this charity gonna kick in?  Huh?  Fuck you.  You're either one of the bastards who fool the average morons into believing that "They too can one day have everything if they just work hard enough" or you're one of the dumb bastards who are falling for it.  Either way, you should be ashamed.

Name: OP 2010-01-10 3:07

>>32

The whole of your issue and misunderstanding in the subject has to do with wealth. That is what is wealth and how does one get wealthy. You seem to think

that raw-materials, such as Petroleum, translates directly into wealth, and the only way a person can and do get rich is by hogging all the raw-materials.

Which means for one to get rich, it necessarily makes another poor. And I am telling you, that is wrong.

First, I already explained substitute in the previous post, a very basic economic principle, and the reason why hogging raw-materials does NOT cause others

to become poor, because the owner cannot set his price above what is fair, above what the equalibrium of supply and demand, or else people will turn to and

buy or make new substitutes.

More detailed explaination down further down below.

>>>Your first point<<<

Why so selfish? Because been selfish, truly selfish, is what promotes human life. The very definition of pursuing one's self-interest MEANS pursuing one's

life. And for humans, the act of pursuing and improving our life do NOT involve sacrificing others (again, back to the central issue of wealth production),

and vice versa. Given this fact, if your goal is to pursue your life, then ethically, been selfish is the right and moral thing to do. And politically, if

you want to create a society that is good for the people, then the right thing to do is create a society that allow it's individuals to have the freedom and

liberty to pursue their own life and happiness.

And as a side, the act of stealing wealth produced by others instead of producing wealth oneself, that is not been selfish, that is been self-destructive.

Now, the ethical "system" that has been functioning for a long time since the dawn of history that has caused mankind untold suffering and death, is

precisely the OPPOSITE of what I presented. The age old ethical system of Altruism, the ethical system that tells you that you have no right to exist for

your own sake, that service to others or other causes is the only justification for your existence, is precisely what served as the moral foundation for the

greatest atrocities committed in history. This ranges from the Spanish Inquisition to Nazi Germany to Communist Russia. The first forced people to sacrifice

their life to serve God. The second forced people to sacrifice their life to serve the state. The last forced people to sacrifice their life to serve the

poor. Everyone of them condemned selfishness, condemned a person for pursuing his own life, and forced them instead to be a slave to some other cause. I

don't have to elaborate the atrocities that resulted. This is what happens when you try to create a society on altruistic ethics, when you try to create a

society for the goal of making people into slaves to serve some other cause (such as feeding the poor) instead of creating a society for the purpose of

allowing every individual the freedom and liberty to pursue their own life and happiness.

Again, the pursuit of life and happiness of one person does not take away from another. Wealth production of one person do NOT make another poorer.

>>>Your second point<<<

>Taxes are never taken from anyone without their consent. We are not forced to pay taxes. Long before we're faced with taxes we are forced to align ourselves

with a contemporary nation.

Your erroneous premise here is basically saying that the entity "Nation" OWNS the land, and people living on them have to follow the Nation's rule, since the

land is somehow the Nation's property.

Well what is the Nation? Is it the government? The whole of the population? A group of oligarchy claiming to be the Representative of the Nation?

Nation as a whole don't and can't own anything. Only people can. When government, when other people, tells an individual that he can either give out $100 for

something he never brought/used, for something he is not responsible for, or be locked in a cell, that is called robbery, and it is forced.

Again, central issue, since poverty is not the creation of wealthy production, those who produced wealth and payed all their dues is not responsible and does

not own anybody else anything.

>The world the current economic system was designed to work for no longer exists.  When "economics" was developed there were still frontiers.  There was

still an out. The antiquated basic economic liturgy that I keep hearing is based on an open system with unlimited opportunity.  Unlimited resources.  It's

the 21st century, not the 18th.  All of the worlds available resources, at least those accessible by individuals or even small groups of people, are spoken

for.  Now we are in a closed system, and the idea that opportunity has remained constant is ridiculous.

This is the central issue you are wrong at.

Let me address the essential mistake you are making.

Name: OP 2010-01-10 3:13

(As for your erroneous point that somehow government funding is the only way some tech could have been developed, this is dealt with further down below)

The essential mistake you make is that you translate raw materials directly into resource, into wealth. News flash, the black goo we called Petroleum isn't a resource and worth nothing to the cave men. Ask yourself why that is. Mud and sand dust isn't a resource right now, but can become useful resource in the future. Ask yourself how that is possible.

Fact of the matter is, ANY physical matter can qualify as resource, as long a technology is developed by an individual(s) to use it. Since creativity for the human mind is unlimited, one only has to think, resource is also unlimited.

Let me repeat that. Resource IS unlimited.

Or to be more anally precise, resource is only limited by technology, by the height of creativity the human mind has achieved at the time.

As a simple example, Uranium isn't a resource to anyone 100 years go. It only became a resource when the person split the first atom. Mud or sand dust isn't a resource right now. But assuming someone develops Anti-Matter technology in the future, mud or dust will become resource.

This is also precisely the reason why wealth is also unlimited and is PRODUCED. New wealth are produced when an individual thought up and develops a new technology that either makes a previously useless matter into a resource, or makes a present resource more useful, or make the process of resource production less costly...etc. That technology/innovation/invention..etc. is the source of any fortune he makes.

THAT is why resource is unlimited. THAT is how wealth is produced. And THAT is why when a person produce wealth, he EARNS that wealth which he PRODUCED.

Your mistake of translating raw materials, bypassing human mind, and directly into resource, into wealth, is the reason why you can come up with that ridiculous example of yours about "100 people locked in a room with 100 gallons of water". That mistake about the source of wealth is also a major cause and foundation of Communism among other things.

Now, about your erroneous point that somehow some technological innovations could ONLY have been developed by government funding, and thus implying the source of wealth somehow ultimately lies with the government. Where do you think the money government used to fund those technological innovations came from? And where did you think the money, the wealth, that individual have in the first place that can pay up as taxes came from? More over, what makes you think those individuals with the technological skill and ambition to develop those innovations couldn't have gone to the source instead and collected private investment from other individuals with the promise of a killing profit return later on, which is how the majority of businesses starts?

It's true that significant innovations are less now from what it could have been. That is the result of government intervening into the economy when they have no right too, such as bailing out corporations..etc. But this fact doesn't somehow make it any less true that the source of present wealth and of new wealth ultimately lies with technology and innovations, with the human mind, and that new opportunity and new wealth is limitless. One only has to think.

However, the most important thing of all, I never said I argue Charity over Welfare BECAUSE Charity lessens poverty. Charity does, in comparison with Welfare, since Welfare ultimately causes more poverty.

But that is not the justification nor the reason why I argue for Charity over Welfare. The reason is because it is morally wrong to FORCE someone under threat to help another person whose situation the previous someone had nothing to do with.

The only way Welfare can be morally justified is if the process of wealth production somehow directly causes poverty. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-10 3:18

>>32
>But like the witchcraft you call economics, it's a lie.  There is no more water.
So why hasn't the GDP per capita stayed the same since medieval times?

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-10 3:23

>>32
Farmers use 100000s of gallons of water but they use it better than I ever can.

I couldn't even begin to calculate what gauge railway is the most economical and that's just one tiny yet essential element of the economy and there are 1000000s of other decisions like it that you cannot make, frankly I prefer capital to be in the hands of private citizens who are properly motivated and know what they are doing than a bunch of fruity socialists.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-10 19:38

Acclinis falsis animus meliora recusat.

Name: OP 2010-01-11 1:44

>>36

That is the wrong justification for private ownership.

If a person, such as a farmer in your example, happens to be incompetent, does that give others the right to take away his property without his consent for "better" uses?

Private ownership isn't justified because somehow it happens to be the best system that allows individuals to become slaves to  causes other than their own lives. Private ownership is justified because it is the only econ-political system that recognizes the right of every person to their own life in a society and grants them the liberty to pursue their own happiness.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-11 5:36

>>38
If liberty is good because it is the most efficient method of pursuing happiness then isn't your argument similiar to mine?

I don't believe the farmer should have his property confiscated, firstly because ownership of the farm should go to the highest bidder allowing the invisible hand of free market forces to assign the land most efficiently and secondly because whatever political authority decides the farmer is incompetent is not omnipotent and therefore not as efficient as market forces.

Name: OP 2010-01-11 8:17

>>39

Depends on whose happiness, whose good, are you talking about. The good and life of the individual himself, or some collective good/public-interest.

Even though you didn't state explicitly which one it is you meant in both your posts, both of your posts alludes that it is the second, the collective good and public interest, that serves as the justification for private ownership/liberty..etc.

And I am saying that is the wrong justification.

Liberty, private ownership..etc. the Individuals Rights as a whole, isn't justified because it is somehow the best political tool that allows the people to serve some public interest. Individuals Rights are morally justified because you as an individual, as a human begin, have the right to pursue your own self-interest, your own life and happiness.

Individuals Rights are justified because people are human. The very reason why there is so much violation of Individual Rights in our political system today is precisely BECAUSE people erroneously try to justify Individual Rights under Altruism, under service to others, to the public.

For the farmer example, if you try to justify his right to property not because of the fact he is a human begin, but because giving him the liberty to use his property as he see fit will wind up allowing him to best serve some public interest, some interest of others, then consider this: If the farmer happens to be an incompetent heir who inherited a vast fortune of lands, and he screws up the operation of his farm majorly, does the government somehow then have the right to confiscate, to nationalize, his farm so they can put competent professionals to work it thus better serving the public interest? Because if Individual Rights is erroneously justified under service to others, then yes, government would have the right to confiscate his farm on principle.


Individual Rights are not justified on the ground of Altruism, of service to others or other causes. It isn't good and right because it somehow makes people better slaves to serve causes other than pursuing their own life. You do not have to justify your right to pursue your own life and happiness because it somehow winds up serving the life and happiness of others. Your right to pursue your own life, and your own happiness, is justified because you are a human begin.

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