>>306
"Is a fucking idiot. The point he continues to glare over is that our country could never ban abortion in principle because it would run alien to the general premise of democracy and capitalism."
No it wouldn't. Whether or not abortion is justifiable from a capitalist (individual rights oriented) viewpoint depends on how you view the fetus. If it is a human life, it has rights, and it is thus right for the government to perform the function of protection. If it is not a human life, it then abortion should be allowed.
Abortion is easilly justifiable from a capitalist viewpoint. All you need to do is accept the fact that the human fetus is indeed a human life, and that it is thus the proper function of government to protect its right to continue to live.
"It doesn't matter how you slice it- a fetus isn't a whole human being and it is not as sacred."
This depends on what your viewpoint of a 'whole' human being is, and on what constitutes a 'human being'.
"You're not going to convince people to give up their right to make principal decisions regarding their sexual."
All you are saying, is 'you're not going to convince people to give up their right to violate the rights of others.'
"Whether or not they were irresponsible is irrelevant. The government has every right to preserve it's population, but not this way, by breaking it's own social contract."
Actually, this is relevant. Many would argue that the woman has the right to remove the fetus from her body. At this point, we can recognize that this means death for the human fetus. The fact that the mother is responsible for the fact that this life is there and dependent upon her is thus important to note in considering some aspects of the abortion debate.
"Banning abortion would be the final blow to America."
Not-banning abortion would be the final blow to America, imo. It would be the recognition, in the most basic forms, that the government's primary duty is no longer to preserve the lives of its human constituents. The notion that government's proper duty is to protect human life is at the very foundation of good government.
"The government can't own and has no right to protect the innocent, unborn, soverign, sacred fetus in the first place."
I never tried to argue that the government owns the human fetus. The argument is not that the government owns the human fetus, the argument is that the human fetus has the right to continue to develop and live, and that it is the proper function of government to protect these rights. This has nothing to do with ownership.
"It doesn't matter if it's alive or dead. Children are products of parents."
So if you took a baby, stuffed it in isolation for 20 years, making sure it had sustenance, but nothing outside of that, would it then be OK to kill it, since, according to you, experiance supposedly makes the human being?
Experiance is not the only thing that makes a human being, and that is why it would obviously be wrong.
>>307
"even if universalizable isn't a word the comparison is not moot."
Yes it is.
"Humans are what they learn;"
So humans are nothing more than bundles of experiances? So if you took a baby, stuffed it in isolation for 20 years, making sure it had sustenance, but nothing outside of that, would it then be OK to kill it then, since, according to you, experiance supposedly makes the human being?
"without the sensory apparati AND relevant cerebral centers cooperating, the foetus is just a cluster of cells"
Wrong. There is more to human beings than this.
"Do you have any idea how similar we are to animals, or how much of their interior resembles ours? What makes us humans is our brains and what it is given to process. Then there is a true Difference, maybe even soemthing resembling a 'soul'."
I don't believe in 'souls' in a religious sense, but this is beside the point. You are getting to the right area of the conversation now, though, which is 'what constitutes a human being'. If the fetus is too 'human', abortion should obviously be intensely regulated, if not outright banned.
"You not understanding the analogy with good corporations (majority)/bad corporations (minority) and women who get abortions early enough (majority)/women who get abortions once foetus has developed unique personality (minority) makes me wonder what your mental rigidity has done to your thought processes."
It is the duty of our government to protect our citizens, not citizens of foreign countries. Your corporation analogy is beside the point - it is their responsibility to worry about themselves, and it is our responsibility to worry about ourselves. Our government is there to protect our citizens first and foremost, and we have no 'duty' to protect those of other countries.
"And we are not killing innocents before they commit a crime; we are preventing them from experiencing things that will eventually make them burden to societies,"
So, hypothetically, if there was a born baby (not an unborn baby, mind you) who would grow up in such a way that /might/ incite him to live a life of crime, would you kill him before he has actually committed any crimes? It is wrong to punish someone for something they didn't do, period, even if there is a 90% chance they will do it. The facts are it has not happened yet, and it is thus wrong to punish them for something they might/or will do in the future. Have you seen Minority Report?
"refuting your claim that abortions will lead to civilization's downfall."
I never said abortions will lead to civilization's downfall.
"These children are not determined to commit crimes, but they will be."
'but they *might* be'
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"it means that we should allow abortions to be an option, because it has a utilitarian effect"
No. Sacrificing the rights of the few for the benefits of the many is not right. Each individual should have the inalienable right to LIFE, liberty, and property.
"Perhaps one of the reasons crime is higher in blue states is because of the illegalization of drugs"
? Blue states are generally the ones favoring legalization. They have higher crime rates. They also support stricter gun control. Conservative areas (note: I say 'conservative areas', not 'red states') tend to have lower crime rates than liberal areas. Most of the United States' crime comes from liberal areas of the country. Most conservatives live in rural areas, and these areas have very, very low crime.
"What I do know is that all the red states (save one, I think) do worse economically and get money from the blue states, who could use it more considering the higher crime rate in total."
The red states shouldn't have to pay for extra police officers for the blue states to use to lower the crime rates that are resultant from their stupid liberal governments. It doesn't matter if the blue states could use it more or not. The blue states can unfuck their own areas.
"harm women's rights"
The right doesn't harm women's rights. Women have equal freedom in this country, last I checked.
"and will defend the right to abortions to my last breath if I have to."
'and will defend the right of women to violate the rights of others to compensate for their irresponsibility to my last breath if I have to'
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