Defend the 2nd Amendment!

http://www.gunowners.org/

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Quite possibly the best organization around for defense of your 2nd Amendment liberties, this site has a listing of your Senators and Congressman dating back to the Clinton Administration, and includes individual votes from every representative on many if not all gun-related votes within this span of time!

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Remember, it's a right, not a privilege.

>>40
Mostly true.  However, the right to self-defense is natural, and inalienable.  To restrict firearms is to restrict that right.  I vote 3rd party, but common, the Republicans are better than the Democrats. 

The democrats will just sell this country out to the U.N. if they get elected.  Imagine what might have happened if the democrats had won the last two elections, and we didn't have John Bolton to tell the U.N. to fuck off for us?

Very possibly global gun control. 

>>32
But the Republicans not only support the 2nd Amendment, they are capitalist and support capitalism. 

I'd take the Republicans over the Socialist dems anyday.

ALTHOUGH, if a democrat came forward who supported ALL personal freedoms, including, and most importantly, the right to bear arms, I'd give him my vote. 

>>40
tHE WHOLE CONSTITUTION IS ABOUT PREVENTING tyranny (caps..), so how can tyranny be prevented if it is physically impossible? With today's technology more than ever it is much easier for tyranny to thrive, you need huge industrial complexes and resources to create a military even as simple as north Korea's or some gunmen in Somalia. With gun control the civilian population can be neuterred making it impossible for the tyrant in charge to ever be overthrown, let alone for whoever overthrows the tyrant not to be a tyrant himself.

>>33

I knew all the internet libertarians were going to go after me when I made that post.  I don't care, because libertarians are silly silly people.

(in before more complaining by libertarians and silly fantasies that 3rd parties will make a difference)

Also, I shall say this: The 2nd amendment was written in a time when the armed forces of the United States was composed entirely of local militias.  The militia is a thing of the past; the 2nd amendment is obsolete.

>>45
Enjoy your police state. 

>>44
I'd take a libertarian over a liberal anyday. 

Heroine, cocaine, marijuana, and many other drugs are illegal in the US. The US government is involved in a "drug war" to end the drug trade. And yet, in a 5 minute walk, I could buy a huge amount of drugs. Gun control laws in the US will be as effective as the drug war. If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns. Drugs and guns are an unfortunate part of our culture, but laws won't change that.

>>46

Yes, because we live in Nazi Germany where the government is going to come and arrest us all for things we didn't do, and we need assault rifles and RPGs to fight back.

Jesus Christ.  I never thought I'd be saying that.  George Bush and the Republicans are the worst thing to happen to our nation- actually, scratch that, the people who vote for them are.  But my point is, I am fully aware that the Bushites are ruinign America.  They're turning it into a theocracy, putting religion above reason, silencing anyone who dissents, using mob tactics in politics, doing everything despicable to get more power and more money, but you are even crazier.  Apparently, in your world, we're in a constant battle with DUH GOBERMENT and their going to TAKE ALL OUR RIGHTS AND THROW US ALL IN CAMPS and if, GOD FORBID, we have background checks for buying firearms, then we're all FUCKING DOOMED.

You gun nuts are the craziest of the lot.  Even crazier than libertartians.

(caps lock is cruise control for cool lol)

>>48
You are applying double standards.

"Yes, because we live in Nazi Germany where the government is going to come and arrest us all for things we didn't do, and we need assault rifles and RPGs to fight back."

When it comes to gun control you think everything is ok and tyranny will never happen so there is no need for the general public to own guns.

"Jesus Christ.  I never thought I'd be saying that.  George Bush and the Republicans are the worst thing to happen to our nation- actually, scratch that, the people who vote for them are.  But my point is, I am fully aware that the Bushites are ruinign America.  They're turning it into a theocracy, putting religion above reason, silencing anyone who dissents, using mob tactics in politics, doing everything despicable to get more power and more money, but you are even crazier."

But when it comes to Republicans, the absolute worst thing is happenning and america is hurtling towards tyranny.

I'll defend the 2nd amandment if they bring back the old boards

>>48
Why you trust goverment so much and more importantly why you're against 2nd amendment? You'd feel right home at UK or maybe even that wouldn't be enough for you and China would be better... I hope you're some crooked politician or NSA agent, because I don't want to even think people like you exist in America.

>>51
Hope alone does not change the world around you.

>>48
You seem to forget the Japanese concentration camps made in the good ol' USA during WW2. 

If I was a Jap about to be thrown in one of those, you bet I would want a good old AK-47 (full auto of course) to fight back. 

You fucking liberals need a history lesson before you shoot your mouth off. 

>>48
No they aren't.  Clinton and the Clintonians were. 

>>54
What you need to realise that it's not Republican nor Democrat thing. Both parties have police state dreams which in concept are totally similar. If you want freedom don't vote either party.

>>49

You didn't catch my point: America is going downhill, yes, and pretty fucking fast, but it won't get to the point where we actually need to fight off the military or other government agencies to keep our liberty.  That would be a justifiable reason to hoard guns and such, but the argument that we need assault rifles to fend off common street thugs is ludicrous. 

In case you didn't realize it, since you missed my last point: I'm not against gun ownership, I'm just against the kind of insane lack of regulation the NRA wants.  If you want to buy a firearm, you better damn well have a clean background check, you better sit through a waiting period, and so on.  And you sure as hell aren't getting assault rifles.  If you think you need a handgun to protect your home from burglars, then by all means, purchase one, after you have passed several checkpoints.

>>56
I see, but could you tell us why do you fear tools? Was some of yours friends killed with gun or are you just crazed paranoid who wants goverment security?

>>56
Thank god the republicans won in a landslide. 

Guess what?  The assault weapons ban expired, and crime went down, LOL!

Stupid liberals said there'd be blood in the streets. 

>>56
"And you sure as hell aren't getting assault rifles."

Actually, you can.  I'm happy too, I think I'll get one. 

Why should you not be allowed to have an assault rifle?

>>59
There's no reason that you shouldn't be allowed to own an assault rifle, or a machine gun, for that matter. 

If you are worried about getting shot, just get a concealed carry permit so you aren't defenseless. 

In Israel, a while back, a gunman pulled out a machine gun in a crowded area, and started to open fire.  He managed to hit only one person before another from the crowd pulled out a pistol and shot him dead on the spot. 

Gun proliferation is the answer to shootings.  Disarming people just leaves them defenseless to criminals and terrorists alike. 

>>60
True, but remember that you can go too far with gun proliferation. IE. background checks are nice thing, but gun registry is useless bureaucracy and can be dangerous(like any goverment operated registry). Current US system is fine except NFA should be returned to it's original state.

>>56
Exactly, it won't get to that point because there are 200 million guns in circulation and no politican wants to risk his cranial-ocular cavity trying to start a coupe.

I agree that there should be some degree of gun control just like there is control over the chemicals needed to produce explosives, biologically hazardous microbes etc etc.. but most of the ideas for gun control presented are absolutely absurd and I disagree with practically all of them.

Case in point...

The idea for gun free zones to me at first seems like a good idea, however the politican's idea is to have a metal detector at a door.. That's it. If someone wants to use his gun maliciously how in fuck is that going to stop him? I think maybe the term gun-free zone is a little ambiguous. I prefer the term gun-resistant zone. If you want a zone truly free from gun-crime you do what the army has figured out. Erect 2 layers of concrete walls seperated by 10 metres, each topped with barbed wire and an armed guard at a single entrance and 3 or 4 concrete observation towers, the whole complex surrounded by 100 metres of featureless ground. Unless one of the guards goes psycho you should be fine.

>>61
What you are saying sounds pretty good, up until this: 

"Current US system is fine except NFA should be returned to it's original state."

What do you mean by the NFA should be returned to it's original state?

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'd just like to know what you mean. 

>>63
Well, no machine gun ban and end of import bans etc. Lots of stuff they have changed, since 1934.

>>64


I think automatic rifles (like the auto version of the AK-103 for example) should be entirely legal. 

We should get rid of all these dumb bans.  The 1934 ban was put in place largely because of the escalation of crime due to prohibition.  It's silly to still have it now, as prohibition has ended, and the crime rate has returned to a reasonable level. 

>>65
True. We already have background checks on federal level. Only non-convicted law-abiding citizens can buy gun legally.

>>66 No self-defense for you, marijuana-smoker. Thanks to them goodoldboys on the hill you have less rights than rapists and manslaughters when we're done with you.
...
Then again, the left operates on a completely unacceptable level from a philosophical standpoint. I guess one can limit ones vote towards candidates on a federal level, instead of going for probabilities. Scrutiny and discussion with your governors and mayors, demanding sound policy.
But when it comes to presidential elections and who has senatorial/congressional majority, you're boned either way, one can just hope that the package of malaise and partisan stupidity one has iinflicted on the nation does as little damage as possible. Elect Bush, your children get mercury death. Elect Kerry, guns get attacked and crime goes up.
Libertarian ideas about the free market seem naïve and cowboyish, but considering how badly American zeitgeist is going, a fresh start would be useful. Maybe mercantile ideas do cause a healing process that liberate people, and maybe they will make sure that the companies they hire for infrastructure do their business wholefully. We need more candidates like Perot, and less partisanship regarding issues like gay marriage, Gaza and abortion. failing that, I hope America falls to its doom via some cataclysm, because you can't go on like this. Clinton and Bush have been the worst presidents ever together with Nixon, Hoover and Carter. WTF?

>>67
The problem is there is no alternative to vote for who has a shot at victory. 

It has been said to death, no matter who gets elected, freedom will suffer. 

I am just going to vote libertarian anyways, and support IRV if it ever makes it to the ballot. 

>>68 Isn't there some New York fellow who appears at least *a little* acceptable? Then again, he may not run for office...

>>59

Can you give me any sane reason to have an assault rifle?  Now, compare that to the danger that an assault rifle presents.  Simply keeping an assault rifle presents a danger to people.  Assault rifles are dangerous, and without a compelling reason for civilians to own them, they should not be allowed to be sold to civillians.

>>60

>>Gun proliferation is the answer to shootings.
That's like saying knife proliferation is the answer to knifings.  Nuke proliferation is the answer to nuclear war.  Jesus Christ, are you really that stupid?

>>62

>>Exactly, it won't get to that point because there are 200 million guns in circulation and no politican wants to risk his cranial-ocular cavity trying to start a coupe.

It won't get to that point because the Religious Right has figured out that it's so much easier to create tyranny by subtle means.  Spread talking points throughout the media, use debate tactics that bring everything down to emotional catch-phrases, use phrases like "Support the troops" and "Why do you hate America?" to silence any dissent, etc.  My point is that guns are useless against the tactics they are using to create tyranny.  And if you want to use guns to fight back, then the police and the army are ready and willing to stop you.  Weapons are obsolete as the method of protecting liberty, so I see no compelling reason for minimal gun control.

>>I agree that there should be some degree of gun control just like there is control over the chemicals needed to produce explosives, biologically hazardous microbes etc etc..

That's exactly the way I see the issue of gun control.  Guns are extremely dangerous tools, like chemicals that can be used to make explosives.  But guns do have legitimate purposes.  Obviously the police and armed forces need them, and I'm not against hunting.  But because these tools are so dangerous, they must be controlled.

>>67

>>Elect Bush, your children get mercury death. Elect Kerry, guns get attacked and crime goes up.

Elect Libertarians and get cancer because there aren't any standards as to what companies can do with their product and lie to the consumer about.

>>70
You have failed to substantiate any of your arguments.

>>71

Which ones?  I'm perfectly willing to elaborate on any points.

>>72
Isn't it obvious?

>>70
What's sane reason for you? I can think numerous reasons to own assault rifle. Can be training if you're military or militia type guy, collecting or just plinking & target practice. IMO all those are sane reasons. Besides assault rifle isn't more dangerous than your average semi-auto rifle. Infact in the hands of madman full auto fire might be disadvantage as you're not likely to hit anything if you just spray and pray. I can see your point and understand you. You want security. We want freedom. People are different.

>>74

You may not have intended do, but you actually went a long way in convincing me with your remark about security and freedom.  I've always, always said that freedom trumps security.  Perhaps I am applying a double standard.  I'll have to think about it.

It is really fun to spray someone's ass with rock salt. Buckshot is good too!

>>75
All meaningful laws boil down into freedom and security in the end. Some laws maybe safeguard to freedom, but typically laws are safeguard of security and they infringe on freedom. Not just on gun rights.

>>77
I agree.  All the more reason to support the libertarians, or for that matter, parties willing and wanting to downsize the government. 

>>78

Yeah, because being ruled by corporations is so much better than the government.

>>79 Stop shouting Orwell the minute that comes up. The problem today is that the capitalist circle are forming some kind of suspended elite, but that isn't possible in a free economy. Plus, new enterprises that are closely linked to their consumer block can't get up to dumb shit, because then there would always be a more honest company for consumers to go to. Plus, if states get more control over respective laws and regulations, states like California, Florida and others will thrive and Texas, Utah and the others will turn into mercury-infested shitholes with poor education and infrastructure. Everyone will get their dues, crime will go down and people like Halliburton will no longer be able to overthrow and extort other countries with the US military. This is, of course, the best possible scenario. But hey, you'll get yourself a tax break.