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Govt Health Care

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-20 0:33

Tax supported national health care programs are a really horrible idea..

Why should responsible citizens who eat right, exercise, and take care of themselves have to bear the same burden of the national bill as those who smoke, drink, and eat like shit?

The beauty of the free enterprise system and a free market, is that people's actions affect THEM.  Having the community foot the bill for people's health care is a departure from a society with a healthy respect for individual accountability.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-20 19:06

>>1

"Tax supported national health care programs are a really horrible idea.."

They are also fiscally irresponsible.  The U.S. debt is out of control, primarilly because of such programs. 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-24-retiree-taxpayers_x.htm

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-20 19:19

The existing Medicare system provides health care with about 1/10 the over head as private health insurance.  In fact the gov't holds hospitals and doctors feet to the fire pretty well on pricing, and generally keep health care costs down.
 
The only group against nationalized health care is private insurance companies.  Your employer doesn't give a rats ass.  A system like canada has is taking 100% from the employee's paycheck.  The employer pays 0%.  Big (non-insurance) business would love to see a national plan.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-20 20:49

>>1
Right analysis, wrong conclusion.

People shouldn't have free healthcare for being fatties, alcoholics and smokers. You don't have a disease, you're a stupid fuck!

Starving orphans on the other hand should get free healthcare provided by the state since charity is never enough.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-20 22:50

>>4
You think the funding for this "free healthcare" just magically appears? The government extorts it from other people.  Charity is a good thing.  Forced charity at the point of a gun is not charity, it's stealing.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-21 16:21

Just want to clear up a common misconception.  The current state of the U.S.'s health care is due to a couple of major events:

1) The creation of the AMA created a lopsided power struggle in patient care.  At the creation half of all med schools were closed down.  Now you can debate the merits of this action, but if you reduse the amount of doctors by half, then you will roughly double the cost of health care.  There was a practice of poor worker communities to hire a doctor for everyone and that doctor would make routine checkups.  The AMA put a stop to this practice because it felt it put doctors on a lower standing.  There are many other actions taken by the AMA that prevented people from getting the care they need.

2) Prior to WWII most health care was handled privatley.  A patient would go into the doctor when they needed care, the doctor would bill them, and the patient would pay.  Prices were very low.  During WWII though, the U.S. government initiated a wage freeze.  It prevented businesses from trying to lure workers by offering them higher pay.  Instead businesses offered helth care packages to potential employees.  This put America on the health insurance racket that it has been on ever since. 

Insurance is necessary for many things, specifically unforseen major problems.  Untimely death->Life Insurance, Car Accident->Auto Insurance etc.  The problem with most health insurance is that it cover minor things, like colds.  The price is driven very high, consumers don't mind since they have a third party paying for it.  Doctors love it since they can charge more money.  And insurance companies love it since they want to stay alive. 

A national health care service does not solve the major problems with the current system.  It infact makes things worse.  Instead of have many insurance companies that may keep the price low, you have only one company. 

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-21 21:23

Your right.  One insurance company.  Medicare pays less for services than any other company pays.  Hospital or doctor hands sends in a bill, they pay pennies on the dollar.  But every major hospital and clinic takes medicare.  Reason?  Because it's gaurenteed money.  It might be less money, but for the time being, it's money you'll get. 
 
You want to know why Health Care costs so much?  Two Words.  United HealthCare.  The largest health care company in the world.  They, and companies like they CONTROL EVERYTHING.  They operate the clinic, the hospitals, the nurse lines, the pharmacies, the organ donor programs, nursing homes, assisted living, medical transcription, labs AND the health insurance AND the malpractice insurance.

Even if you're not going to a place that's not them, there's a good chance that on the back side your hospital/clinic/insurance company is outsourcing something to one of the two or three superlarge health care/insurance/whatever company.

These companies have created a system of contracts, shell companies, and outsourcing schemes so that YOU WILL NEVER TRUELY KNOW WHERE YOUR MONEY IS GOING.  PERIOD. 
 
Any attempt to reform the system is bastardized by paid punduits and lobbiest that will convert a good plan into something to make the largest of large health care companies get more money.

Remember how back in 2000 healthcare costs were pinned on out of control lawsuits?  "We need tort reform.  Blah, Blah, Blah."  Guess what, we got tort reform.  Have you seen your rates go down?

Poster 6 talks a good talk, but really, doesn't know what they are talking about.  Insurance not paying for the little stuff doesn't help.  You won't know how you'll be charge until you get the bill.  And the bill you get will be 10 times more than anything the insurance company would ever pay. 
 
The era of the small time doc is gone.  Those doctors were lured out of private practice ages ago.  Now you work at an HMO.  Insurance companies won't pay for your services unless you're credentialed with them (meaning you agree to treat a patient in a way that most cost effective, not what's best for the patient.) 

Get rid of companies like United HealthCare and switch to universal.  It's the only way you'll ever be able to know where the money goes.

Back in 2000 rate hikes were blamed

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-21 23:00

>>5
Don't be a stupid fuck! Sufferring is wrong and if you don't have a moral conscience, just hurry up and kill yourself since you are probably one of these people who believes their purpose in life is to gain as much pleasure as possible regardless of the consequences then die and despite their directed efforts still goes around saying "life sux lolz", you might aswell just end it.

If charity is not enough to end poverty then unfortunately welfare is needed. All that needs to be done to reduce the strain on the meager amount of tax needed to fund a program to eradicate poverty, we just have to make sure it is not given to the undeserving and focus on rehabilitation.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 0:21

>>8
Don't take the moral fucking high ground here.  If you advocate government welfare (in any form) you are supporting a tax funded programs.  So let me ask you this question, if your mother was dying would you be justified in stealing from me? 

>>7
Yes that is a horrible company, but how would have one government run program help the problem?  The problem is that no one knows how much health care should cost.  This is why the price rises (significantly) faster than inflation.  Same as with education.  They are the two most subsidised industries.  Going to a single payer system will only exacerbate the problem.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 0:26

>>8
"and if you don't have a moral conscience, just hurry up and kill yourself"

So the liberal is giving me a lecture on my "moral conscience," while proclaiming that stealing is OK as long as it's done for you via the government?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


"If charity is not enough to end poverty then unfortunately welfare is needed."

Speak for yourself you asshole.  You want to help the poor? GREAT.  Do it... with YOUR money.  You god damn liberals are so fucking eager to spend OTHER people's money. 

http://www.justiceplus.org/capitalist.htm


Capitalism is a morally correct economic system.  It is founded upon a principle seemingly unknown to you:  justice.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 0:47

while proclaiming that stealing is OK as long as it's done for you via the government?

It's your government. If they're "stealing" from you, vote for a representative to stop it. Or you could reevaluate the social contract and go elsewhere.

It is founded upon a principle seemingly unknown to you:  justice.

A dog eat dog world is just? Okay, after you.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 0:56

>>11

"A dog eat dog world is just? Okay, after you."

That which you so callously refer to as "dog eat dog" can really be said in a single, much more accurate term:  freedom.  Freedom to work, and keep the products of your work, or trade them, or dispose of them as you wish, so long as you don't harm others in the process. 

This idea is one of the most revolutionary in all human history.  This is the notion that man is free, and that he may choose to work or not, and that the products of either will be his - not by a government grant, nor by the grants of a mob, king, or tyrant, but by RIGHT. 

Yeah, I'll take that society which you call "dog eat dog," thx.

And yes, this is justice.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 1:09

That which you so callously refer to as "dog eat dog" can really be said in a single, much more accurate term:  freedom.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. You'll have your "freedom", and all the pain when others exercise their "freedom" against you. It's just another sort of tyranny; you didn't think that "freedom" would come for free, did you?

This idea is one of the most revolutionary in all human history

Wow, you've really drunk the kool-aid. This idea isn't new at all, nor revolutionary. It's just that the more intelligent of our ancestors decided that giving up some of their freedom so they wouldn't be eaten by the next saber-tooth cat was a good idea (those that didn't were dinner).

I realise that Hobbes and Rousseau are beyond you, but you really ought to learn a bit more before showing off your ignorance.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 1:34

>>13
You're a fucking idiot and you don't understand Hobbes or Rousseau at all.

Hobbes attempted to understand actual influences on people and how to capitalise on what makes people do good. It was revolutionary because usually philosophers just said, the world would be a better place if people were more like this, rather than actually trying to find ways of getting people to act more responsibly.

You are certainly not a Hobbet, LIBERTY AND JUSTICE ARE THE SAME THING, this is the central tenet of democracy. When tax was raised in world war 2 to fund the war effort, no economic freedom was lost, no capitalists claimed that it was a terribly wrong thing to do, it HAD to be done to preserve justice and thus preserve liberty. Having a nazi jack boot stamp on your face isn't a very just system.

Get with reality!

Rousseau's ideas didn't work, the French revolution put a more hostile tyrant into power than the previous tyrant. He was also French, which is probably why you obsess over him so much (yes, I am implying you are a homosexual).

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 2:01

>>10
What about starving orphans? What? Are you just going to let them die? Seriously, that isn't a rhetorical question, answer it.

Starving orphans get welfare, fatties don't.

End of discussion.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 2:26

>>15
Not to mean sound like nihilist bastard, but I don't really see how it should be our collective responsibility to pay for that. Private charities do work well enough and if you want to help those orphans there are many ways to do it. That's not enough for you? I actually give beggars little money and stuff(do you?), but being taxed for goverment wellfare doesn't really appeal to me.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 3:05

Good job proving total ignorance, >>14. It's quite amazing how well you've stuffed your foot in your mouth; googling is no substitute for understanding.

Here, let me help you a little: "No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

Do you not see the parallel here? This is where we came from, and this is where the unfettered capitalists will have us go. Why does social contract even exist? Why do I have to spell out the obvious? Hello?

As for Rousseau, some of his writing had a major impact on Western political philosophy. "Rousseau's ideas didn't work" is so bullshit it hurts. Shit, google totally failed you there.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 3:10

Private charities do work well enough and if you want to help those orphans there are many ways to do it.

I take you haven't studied the Industrial Revolution in Britain. Private charities work well enough? Hah!

I actually give beggars little money and stuff

The key words here: "little money and stuff".

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 3:12

>>18
Why should he be forced to give them anything? 

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 3:16

>>19
Why do we have any laws at all?

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 8:57

>>13
"A rose by any other name is still a rose. You'll have your "freedom", and all the pain when others exercise their "freedom" against you. It's just another sort of tyranny; you didn't think that "freedom" would come for free, did you?"

So if we get rid of a group of people that will steal from us, we may get a group of people that may steal from us????

You admit that these things are bad in your post.  It is bad for a group of people to take away what is yours.  Why is government held to a different moral standard.  Why can I not go up to you and say "Me and 5 of my friend have voted and said that you should give me all your money".  Would you give it to them?  It was democratic.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 10:04

>>20
What does that has to do with govermental wellfare? Laws are there for numerous reasons. Typical reasons being goverment wanting control, people panicking and ofcourse the only acceptable reason that is to keep people from harming fellow citizens.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 14:33

>>17
Whatthe hell. Is this how you reason? You haven't even botherred contending my argument, but instead making a claim that I used google, without evidence and in the seemingly firm belief that this is somehow relevant and that I give a flying cock suck! You are completely in-fucking-sane!

"Here, let me help you a little: "No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.""
Can't you see where justice and liberty comes in? Holy fuck your stupid!

"This is where we came from, and this is where the unfettered capitalists will have us go."

Don't be a dumbass, capitalists soimply want to shift the balanc,e they don't want to do away with the rule of law, LIKE I SAID BUT YOU IGNORED, there was no outcry at the increase in tax during ww2 because capitalists are merely rationalists who see the need of capitalism. The idea that they are insane and would gladly see a tax decrease despite the threat to justice is disproved by their impeccable behaviour during ww2 (many of them risking their lives and dying horrible death in the name of their beliefs, for instance the coca cola company). IT IS A LIE BY MARXISTS AND OTHER OPPONENTS OF CAPITALISM WHO HAVE NO ARGUMENTS THAT CAN WITHSTAND RATIONAL DEBATE AND WHO'S IDEOLOGY CLEARLY STATES IN THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO THAT IT IS JUST A PLOY TO USE THE PROLETARIAT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNEMNT AND ENFORCE A NEW DESPOTISM THAT CANNOT BE OVERTHROWN DUE TO THEIR LOOSE CLAIMS OF HELPING THE POOR.

"As for Rousseau, some of his writing had a major impact on Western political philosophy. "Rousseau's ideas didn't work" is so bullshit it hurts."

Ahahaha this is the stupidest thing said so far. Western polotical philosophy? It's not western, it's irrefutable fact and the epitome of science, calling it western is just an attempt to make it look like "just another opinion". I'm not suprised you were suckerred into this stupid bullshit, I'm not suprised you judge things by where they are from instead of whether they are correct or incorrect. Also Rousseau's ideas were only looked at because they were such a failure and people wanted to know why they failed.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 14:46

>>20
The reason we have laws is to protect citizens from citizens.  The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights was set to protect citizens from the government.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 14:53

I don't see why this should even be an issue.  The United States was meant to be a Capitalist society with a profound respect for property rights (individual rights). 

Socialist scum are corrupting this country.. they are reducing it to a rotting fraction of the glory and justice it once held, and represented. 

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 14:58

>>18
The issue is not whether or not private charities work well enough or not.  (Not saying they don't.)

The issue is justice.  Just because one man has money, and another doesn't, is no justification for robbing the one who has, for the sake of the one who hasn't.

Name: Xel 2006-06-22 16:00

>>26 Neither can we assume that both men started on square one, that the poor man made himself poor or v.v. Think America is the best meritocracy in the world? Read this month's issue of The Economist.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 17:04

>>27
I don't think we are, no.  But what are you implying? The recipient of a rich man's money and earnings when he dies from his will (inheritance) should go to the person whom he has designated.

Sure, the guy didn't earn it, but the person whos rights are in question is not the guy who is recieving it, but the person who is giving it.  That is, it's his money, and he can give it to whom he wants.  (or he should be able to, in a free society)

No, it's not meritocracy. 

Name: Xel 2006-06-22 17:18

I don't deem rich people evil by wanting to care for their relatives, but some sort of levelling must be used, or the cycle will accumulate a very segregated society. Social movement is of course facilitated by empowering employers, creating a flexible market for undemanding, low-paying jobs and enthusing entrpreneurship. These are often factors the right wants to implement. But when women and certain minorities have a tougher time getting jobs and when schools vary so immensely in quality, there is an unfair disadvantage for many. I'm not in favor of affirmative action, but somehow changes must be made. I know private schools are better than public schools, and also that the teacher's union is an obstacle, but this situation is so fucking complex. I'm but 17, and not even an american.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 20:40

>>29
Private schools would actually be of benefit to the poor.  A disproportionately greater percentage of poor folks have recently been sending their children there, believing that they will get a superior education than they might in an inner-city, under-funded school. 

And actually, this happens to be true.  A disproportionately greater number of students from private schools go on to higher forms of education, such as going on to get degrees, which leads to higher paying jobs, and contributes to ending the vicious cycle of poverty.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 21:30

>>26
Only jealous and hateful people want justice like that.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-22 21:42

>>30
Fat ass ghetto trash welfare queens who only have kids so they can skim off as much cash as possible per child to buy malt liquor and those tight pants that show off their nasty flab folds usually don't fork out to send their kids to private schools.

We need to get rid of liberals so people stop making such choices and get rewarded for it.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-23 0:44

>>32
The children growing up in a situation like that? With such an uncaring, unparenting mother? THAT is why crime is running rampant in those ghettos.  Maybe the solution would be to get rid of welfare, so they wouldn't do it, raise such shitty children, who will then contribute to the high crime rate.

We should abolish welfare entirely, and dump those bitches out on their ass.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-23 0:47

>>29  The intended role of the government in the United States was not to redistribute income, but to create, preserve, and protect a free market within which others may create their own fortunes, be they poor or rich. 

That is, the role of government is not to redistribute income, but to serve, and protect.  A police force, a court system, a military, and roads. 

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-23 3:35

     Society has always been segregated and always will be.  I don't mean by race or any bullshit like that, but by social standing.  People will surround themselves with simular people, the rich with the rich and the poor with the poor.  Educated with the educated, ignorant with the ignorant.  Socially people tend to want to associate with people of simular standing because those of any standing tend to have a jelous streak towards those of higher standing.
     It is impossible to balance the education system of the any city, state, or nation, let alone the world.  Wealthy districts tend to have more money than poor districts from taxes(I wonder why), even if you were to say that every school district gets the same amount of tax money per student it would be unbalanced.  Those from wealthy districts would have more sucessful fund raisers and have larger private local donations(once again I wonder why).  There is more money in those areas so more gets to the schools.  Schools with more money get to pay their teachers more.  Paying your teachers more means you get to be more picky and hire more qualified teachers.  Also these areas tend to be safer, and poor districts not so much so.  Even if the pay were the same in the wealthy area as the poor area, a teacher would rather work in the wealthy area because the conditions are better and it's in a safer neighborhood.  Private schools don't really help or hurt the situation, they just make it more obvious to people. 
     A relatively small portion of people on welfare are like >>30 describes.  They are there, and I have met them, but estimatedly they are like 15% of the people on welfare at any one time tops.  The average ammount of time spent on welfare is actually about 6 months.  Meaning if you actually do the math, welfare has a tunover rate of every six months or twice a year, meaning annualy the persentage of people that were on welfare abusing it is acually 7.5%.  This is obviously doesn't make the situation good, it just puts it in better prospective.  My suggestion for getting rid of that situataion is actually fairly system.  Government menial jobs such as post office, garbage pickup, government office janitorial, ect. should just stop hiring outside welfare and hire people on welfare, for a salary exactly equal to what they are getting.  If they want more money they can get another job,  if they screw up and loose the job they loose all benifits.  This would cause a major relief of the system and should include a reduction in what taxes are needed to sustain the system.
          Socialized health care is really a bad idea.  Actually allowing the governemtn to socialize much of anything is a bad idea.  primarially because it gives the government control over that aspect of people lives.  Nothing the government provides is "free" it is all paid for by taxes.  The federal is already in deep debt as it is, and this is primarially from social programs and government skimming of Social security as it is.  Proving that they can't be trusted with that kind of money to begin with, also proving they are ineffective at running such an enormous operation iffeciently.  And even if they could, I don't trust the government with my health.
        Hey, why only socialize healthcare, I mean there are other things that come first.  some things you need every day and if you don't get enough you won't live long enough to need medical attention.  I mean of course food.  Why not socialize the food industry as well?  Hell then the government could mandate that all food has to be healthy and that everyone have a nice healthy diet.  And that would greatly reduce the cost of socialized healthcare, so it would be a win-win situation.  Hell if you are going to socialize various necessities of life you might as well go all the way, I mean why go half-assed when you can take over my entire way of life.
       Then there is the fact that you are taking my money without telling me, and giving it to someone else.  I don't smoke, so why should I pay for the healthcare of someone that does.  I have asthsma, why should someone else have to pay for that.  I don't want them to illegalize smoking, that other person has every right to smoke, and whether the do or don't, they shouldn't pay for my asthsma that i was born with, and I shouldn't pay for their choice.  I don't even want them to ban smoking in public places(government buildings I am alright with banning it in i guess, but not outside the doors of said building), and definately not banning it in sombodys private buisness.  And once again, i have asthsma and I hate the smell of cigarettes, I just don't think it's my job to tell you what to do outside in the open air and what your customers can do in your private business.  Or what anyone can do if they fucking want too.
        How can you say that private chairities do or don't work when they have never been effectively tried.  I mean logically just the fact that people in our nation have so much fewer social taxes than in Europe and such a higher percentage of private charity donations can lead you to a logical conclusion, but really private charity has never been effectively tried.  When you tax more money away from someone they have less money to donate to charity, which makes you tax more to make up for it, which gives them even less money to give, ect.  tax breaks are given on charitable donations, but not nearly to the point that they could be.  On the other side, I can't think of many charities that I trust with my money.  I mean really when I have extra money to give I am more likely to give it directly to someone, or buy food to donate to a food bank or something, rather than trust any big charity.  The are beurocatically choked and self promoting whores.  Hell the last charity that I actually had a lot of respect for was the one that took the money to give terminally ill children a wish(I forgot the name, but it still technically exists), then PeTA got pissed because they gave some kid his wish to go hunting, and now they have a list of "politially correct" wishes that the DYING CHILD can ask  for.  but I rant again.  I guess the point is that the government needs to lay off of me on how I spend my money and Private charities need to get better at serving those they are supposed to be helping.

Name: Xel 2006-06-23 4:10

>>33 As long as we incrementally diminish welfare and make sure people can get said jobs, I'm all for it.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-23 5:46

Actually allowing the governemtn to socialize much of anything is a bad idea.

Yeah, because the days where we paid for protection from specific fire squads were great.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-23 15:30

>>37
     I don't understand what you are trying to say.  I guess you are saying at least now we don't have to pay someone strong to protect us from outsiders.  Is paying the police for protection any different from paying sombody else?  And what does that have to do with social programs?  The last I read I mentioned nothing about the police in my whole rant.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-23 23:28

>>37
Even among the libertarians, there aren't many who advocate the privatization of the police force.  They would still be there, even in a libertarian society. 

Even if the libertarians had FULL control of the senate, house, presidency, congress, governors, state legislatures, etc, only a minority of them would support this measure, and thus it is unlikely it would be passed.

You think of libertarianism far too literally.  Consider the idea of "less government" as a generalization.  If you think the ideas of less government, generally speaking, are appealing, you are a libertarian. 

Even such hardcore Capitalists as Ayn Rand recognize the usefulness of a government police force and military..

Libertarians just want significant checks and balances within the government to secure the liberties guaranteed all individuals in the bill of rights/constitution, and prevent totalitarian/authoritarian forms of government from taking over via a police state.

There is nothing 'radical' about this in an American context...  These are very closely related to the ideas of the founding fathers who created this nation to begin with.

Name: Anonymous 2006-06-24 0:03

>>38
I should have been clearer: It used to be that you'd buy fire insurance from specific groups of firemen. If your house was on fire, only that group would help. If another bunch went down the street, they wouldn't, even if the fire was threatening other houses, and the people you paid were far off or already engaged elsewhere.

Suffice to say, after entire neighbourhoods burned down, someone clued in to the stupidity of the idea.

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