Holocaust denial

I have been reading a lot of stuff recently, some of which has disturbed me.  There are a lot of people out there who say the Holocaust, that horrible time in history they taught us about in school never really happened the way they say it did. 

They cite how there's no way camps like auschewits(sp?) had the capacity to eliminate as many people as they said were held there.  They talk about how zyklon-b wasn't really powerful enough to kill anyone, and those showers apparently outfitted with this chemical were actually used for a delousing procedure.  They talk about how it doesn't make any sense to trick people into going to their death when you've already got them in your custody.

I don't know man; holocaust deniers seem to have information to back them up, all kinds of evidence, to which the holocaust sympathizers only have name calling and questioning the motives of those who deny it.  I am someone who really would like to believe that the holocaust happened, if only so that I can believe there isn't a vast conspiracy behind it.  So, any holocaust sympathizers with a good rebuttal to what they're saying?

Curious onlooker here. Can someone explain why USSR and Italy are on the estimates in >>70? Some of those others, like Greece and Yugoslavia, were also quite peripheral to the whole mess.

Is this a list of what the Nazi's did, or what happened in all of Europe?

lol 4chan

guys i've been reading this and it reminds me..

back in new zealand i had a english teacher who taught me english (i am taiwanese)

she was one of the "survivors" of ww2 (shes polish).. her family members all died during that time.. but yes i can confirm she did not actually see any gas chambers..

all she saw was people dying of starvation, disease etc etc

her daughter also has written a book on her story.. but i can't remember the title anymore :/.. but she lives in new zealand right now..

I like how basically all the "evidence" you guys have was completely obliterated between
>>61
and
>>71
and these deniers have yet to comment on it

The evidence wasn't obliterated at all. You can't replace physical fact with testimony. The Jews testify that 4 billion Jews were killed by the Romans, so many that their blood washed out to sea, when we know for certain that 4 billion Jews did not exist at that time. Replacing physics with belief means you've stepped outside the bounds of reason, which holocaust mythologicians require you to do. I don't need to go out there and disprove every wacko claim. I just need to prove that it wasn't possible, and that people exaggerated and lied about facts in order to prop up the holocaust myth.

Also, some of the testimonies are pretty misleading although important historically (in my opinion), like for instance:
Quote from what that guy copied from nikzor:
-----------------
 The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
62    
Anonymous at 3 Apr 2006: 18:09

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

(This is a total freaking lie. The nazis estimated 4.5 million jews under their control.

The Nazis themselves said that they only had 4.5 million Jews under their direct control (see the analysis of the Wannsee  Minutes which I'll post in a minute) and they would have, in 1941 at least, when that estimate was made, had no particular reason to lie.

This figure is of particular interest when it is considered that as of 1988, some 4.3 million claims for compensation had been filed against the West German government by Holocaust survivors, according to the Federal German government.

Despite this, estimates by non-Nazi sources of the numbers of victims of Nazi concentration camps has varied wildly from six million to 11 million, depending upon which source one cares to consult. )


Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)

In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels' affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?

(This next sentence is untrue, interesting how revisionist website provide online sources to counter claims and nikzor doesn't.)
As even the revisionist David Cole has admitted, revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.
-----------------

Let me tell you a silly little secret. Here's my theory (just my theory based on my own research):

Goebbels was in favor of doing away with the Jews. However, Goebbels didn't make the decisions. Hitler did. Hitler regularly rejected ideas from Goebbels, and Goebbels sometimes got a little too emotionally charged up for his own good (he nearly committed suicide due to a relationship he had with a mistress a couple of years earlier.)  Hitler was in charge, not Goebbels. Goebbels was regularly far more extreme that Hitler was, and Hitler rejected many of his proposals and accepted others. Wikipedia lists Goebbels as the chancellor of Germany (Hitler was the penultimate), for a day from April 30 to May 1 on the eve of NS Germany's occupation after Hitler's mysterious suicide. That's not very much time to kill six million jews, especially when NS Germany's power is practically limited to Berlin's city limits.

What that diary proves to me is that Goebbels was for just shooting all of them and just being done with it during 1942. He never mentions it again, which is odd. Personally, I wonder if they would liquidate 60% and keep 40%? I know for certain that they planned on evacuations, but why keep 40% for forced labor? Also, in the earlier entry, destruction might not mean necessarily mean killing, but disbanding the Jewish banking power structure. Or, he might just mean he was for killing the lot of them. I'm fully willing to believe that Goebbels supported that idea in 1942, but not using fantasy 'gas chambers.' Nobody kills en masse using gas chambers. It's a stupid and impractical idea.

It doesn't matter, because Goebbel's personal opinion in 1942 was contradicted by nazi documents that expressed plans to NOT kill Jews by electro chambers or highly ineffective gas or comic book mad genius scheme or whatever, in addition to expressing concerns about preserving Jewish life and the life of concentration camp inmates in general. Concentration camp directors wrote letters and requests, concerned about the welfare of inmates. Oh, I'm sorry, it was all a nazi evil genius conspiracy. (I don't think the holohoax was a 'Jewish' conspiracy either, just the result of exaggeration, rumormongering, and later individual greed)

As I've mentioned before, testimony doesn't break physical laws. If the Germans had agreed collectively to kill the Jews, they would have shot them in mass graves and reused the casings, just like all the good ol' communist massacres. They had the power to do that. They didn't need to make shower heads that spit out a relatively low toxicity gas (carbon monoxide) that you can find in most homes, or use an explosive insecticide (Zyklon B) right next to a place full of ready-to-blow incinerators. They would have lined them up, and shot them. They didn't have to go through any underhanded comic book 'evil genius' schemes. That's silly. The gas story is just there out of pure speculation and imagination, and to take attention away from the fact that there were no six million bodies. Nazis, guilty of exaggerated crimes until found innocent, under charge of incredible levels of comic book villiany and bending the laws of nature using nazi black magic.    

David Irving comments on that diary as well:
 

I HAVE recently posted an extensive item on Goebbels's entry for March 27, 1942. There are of course very many references to the Jews in his diary, but certain things have to be borne in mind:

   1. after July 1941 he no longer hand-wrote his diary, but dictated it to a third person, his secretary, a civil servant, Dr Richard Otte (whom I interviewed in the 1960s);
   2. entries in the Goebbels diary incriminate him, but not necessarily third parties (that is an obvious evidence-argument);
   3. taken all together, and in conjunction with other files of his propaganda ministry, Goebbels's diaries leave the impression that he occasionally takes certain ideas to Hitler, (e.g. in August 1941 the Yellow Star to be worn by Jews), and sometimes persuades him, and sometimes doesn't;
   4. entries showing Hitler himself taking an initiative, which Goebbels receives and acts upon, are few and far between. Goebbels is almost always the motivating force. That being so, we must take his occasional references to Hitler "enthusiastically" supporting his ideas cum grano salis.

You have to get the feel of the diaries, and the way their writer uses them as much to conceal some things as to record others.

Here's a complete translation of the Wanasee Minutes:
The Wannsee Protocol
This English text of the Wannsee protocol is based on the official U.S. government translation prepared for evidence in trials at Nuremberg, as reproduced in John Mendelsohn, ed., The Holocaust: Selected Documents in Eighteen Volumes Vol. 11: The Wannsee Protocol and a 1944 Report on Auschwitz by the Office of Strategic Services (New York: Garland, 1982), 18-32.
 Stamp: Top Secret

 Minutes of discussion.
 I.   The following persons took part in the discussion about the final solution of the Jewish question which took place in Berlin, am Grossen Wannsee No. 56/58 on 20 January 1942.
Gauleiter Dr. Meyer and Reichsamtleiter Dr. Leibbrandt -  Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern territories
Secretary of State Dr. Stuckart  - Reich Ministry for the Interior
Secretary of State Neumann - Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan
Secretary of State Dr. Freisler - Reich Ministry of Justice
Secretary of State Dr. Buehler - Office of the Government General
Under Secretary of State Dr. Luther - Foreign Office
SS-Oberführer Klopfer - Party Chancellery
Ministerialdirektor Kritzinger - Reich Chancellery
SS-Gruppenführer Hofmann - Race and Settlement Main Office
SS-Gruppenführer Mueller,   SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann  -  Reich Main Security Office
SS-Oberführer Dr. Schoengarth  - Security Police and SD Chief of the Security Police and the SD in the Government General
SS-Sturmbannführer Dr. Lange -  Security Police and SD Commander of the Security Police and the SD for the General-District Latvia, as deputy of the Commander of the Security Police and the SD for the Reich Commissariat "Eastland".

II.  At the beginning of the discussion Chief of the Security Police and of the SD, SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich, reported that the Reich Marshal had appointed him delegate for the preparations for the final solution of the Jewish question in Europe and pointed out that this discussion had been called for the purpose of clarifying fundamental questions.  The wish of the Reich Marshal to have a draft sent to him concerning organizational, factual and material interests in relation to the final solution of the Jewish question in Europe makes necessary an initial common action of all central offices immediately concerned with these questions in order to bring their general activities into line.
The Reichsführer-SS and the Chief of the German Police (Chief of the Security Police and the SD) was entrusted with the official central handling of the final solution of the Jewish question without regard to geographic borders.
The Chief of the Security Police and the SD then gave a short report of the struggle which has been carried on thus far against this enemy, the essential points being the following:
a)   the expulsion of the Jews from every sphere of life of the German people,
b)   the expulsion of the Jews from the living space of the German people.
In carrying out these efforts, an increased and planned acceleration of the emigration of the Jews from Reich territory was started, as the only possible present solution.
By order of the Reich Marshal, a Reich Central Office for Jewish Emigration was set up in January 1939 and the Chief of the Security Police and SD was entrusted with the management.  Its most important tasks were
a)   to make all necessary arrangements for the preparation for an increased emigration of the Jews,
b)   to direct the flow of emigration,
c)   to speed the procedure of emigration in each individual case.
The aim of all this was to cleanse German living space of Jews in a legal manner.
All the offices realized the drawbacks of such enforced accelerated emigration.  For the time being they had, however, tolerated it on account of the lack of other possible solutions of the problem.
The work concerned with emigration was, later on, not only a German problem, but also a problem with which the authorities of the countries to which the flow of emigrants was being directed would have to deal. Financial difficulties, such as the demand by various foreign governments for increasing sums of money to be presented at the time of the landing, the lack of shipping space, increasing restriction of entry permits, or the canceling of such, increased extraordinarily the difficulties of emigration.
In spite of these difficulties, 537,000 Jews were sent out of the country between the takeover of power and the deadline of 31 October 1941.  Of these approximately 360,000 were in Germany proper on 30 January 1933; approximately 147,000 were in Austria (Ostmark) on 15 March 1939; approximately 30,000 were in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia on 15 March 1939.
The Jews themselves, or their Jewish political organizations, financed the emigration.  In order to avoid impoverished Jews' remaining behind, the principle was followed that wealthy Jews have to finance the emigration of poor Jews; this was arranged by imposing a suitable tax, i.e., an emigration tax, which was used for financial arrangements in connection with the emigration of poor Jews and was imposed according to income.
Apart from the necessary Reichsmark exchange, foreign currency had to be presented at the time of landing.  In order to save foreign exchange held by Germany, the foreign Jewish financial organizations were--with the help of Jewish organizations in Germany--made responsible for arranging an adequate amount of foreign currency.  Up to 30 October 1941, these foreign Jews donated a total of around 9,500,000 dollars.
In the meantime the Reichsführer-SS and Chief of the German Police had prohibited emigration of Jews due to the dangers of an emigration in wartime and due to the possibilities of the East.
III. Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Führer gives the appropriate approval in advance.
These actions are, however, only to be considered provisional, but practical experience is already being collected which is of the greatest importance in relation to the future final solution of the Jewish question.
Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:
A.
Germany proper   131,800
Austria   43,700
Eastern territories   420,000
General Government   2,284,000
Bialystok   400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia   74,200
Estonia   -Free of Jews -
Latvia   3,500
Lithuania   34,000
Belgium   43,000
Denmark   5,600
France/ occupied territory   165,000
        unoccupied territory   700,000
Greece   69,600
Netherlands   160,800
Norway   1,300
B.
Bulgaria   48,000
England   330,000
Finland   2,300
Ireland   4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania   200
Croatia   40,000
Portugal   3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia   342,000
Sweden   8,000
Switzerland   18,000
Serbia   10,000
Slovakia   88,000
Spain   6,000
Turkey (European portion)   55,500
Hungary   742,800
USSR   5,000,000
Ukraine   2,994,684
White Russia excluding Bialystok   446,484
Total   over 11,000,000 (In ALL Europe, BEFORE any Jews emigrated from Europe to escape the Germans, and included areas of Europe that Germany NEVER controlled)

The number of Jews given here for foreign countries includes, however, only those Jews who still adhere to the Jewish faith, since some countries still do not have a definition of the term "Jew" according to racial principles.
The handling of the problem in the individual countries will meet with difficulties due to the attitude and outlook of the people there, especially in Hungary and Rumania.  Thus, for example, even today the Jew can buy documents in Rumania that will officially prove his foreign citizenship.
The influence of the Jews in all walks of life in the USSR is well known.  Approximately five million Jews live in the European part of the USSR, in the Asian part scarcely ¼ million.
The breakdown of Jews residing in the European part of the USSR according to trades was approximately as follows:

Agriculture 9.1 %
Urban workers 14.8 %
In trade 20.0 %
Employed by the state 23.4 %
In private occupations such as medical profession, press, theater, etc. 32. 7%

Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.

The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)

In the course of the practical execution of the final solution, Europe will be combed through from west to east.

Germany proper, including the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, will have to be handled first due to the housing problem and additional social and political necessities.

The evacuated Jews will first be sent, group by group, to so-called transit ghettos, from which they will be transported to the East.

SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich went on to say that an important prerequisite for the evacuation as such is the exact definition of the persons involved.

It is not intended to evacuate Jews over 65 years old, but to send them to an old-age ghetto--Theresienstadt is being considered for this purpose.
In addition to these age groups--of the approximately 280,000 Jews in Germany proper and Austria on 31 October 1941, approximately 30% are over 65 years old--severely wounded veterans and Jews with war decorations (Iron Cross I) will be accepted in the old-age ghettos. With this expedient solution, in one fell swoop many interventions will be prevented.

The beginning of the individual larger evacuation actions will largely depend on military developments.  Regarding the handling of the final solution in those European countries occupied and influenced by us, it was proposed that the appropriate expert of the Foreign Office discuss the matter with the responsible official of the Security Police and SD.

In Slovakia and Croatia the matter is no longer so difficult, since the most substantial problems in this respect have already been brought near a solution.  In Rumania the government has in the meantime also appointed a commissioner for Jewish affairs.  In order to settle the question in Hungary, it will soon be necessary to force an adviser for Jewish questions onto the Hungarian government.

With regard to taking up preparations for dealing with the problem in Italy, SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich considers it opportune to contact the chief of police with a view to these problems.

In occupied and unoccupied France, the registration of Jews for evacuation will in all probability proceed without great difficulty.

Under Secretary of State Luther calls attention in this matter to the fact that in some countries, such as the Scandinavian states, difficulties will arise if this problem is dealt with thoroughly and that it will therefore be advisable to defer actions in these countries. Besides, in view of the small numbers of Jews affected, this deferral will not cause any substantial limitation.

The Foreign Office sees no great difficulties for southeast and western Europe.

SS-Gruppenführer Hofmann plans to send an expert to Hungary from the Race and Settlement Main Office for general orientation at the time when the Chief of the Security Police and SD takes up the matter there. It was decided to assign this expert from the Race and Settlement Main Office, who will not work actively, as an assistant to the police attache.

IV.  In the course of the final solution plans, the Nuremberg Laws should provide a certain foundation, in which a prerequisite for the absolute solution of the problem is also the solution to the problem of mixed marriages and persons of mixed blood.

The Chief of the Security Police and the SD discusses the following points, at first theoretically, in regard to a letter from the chief of the Reich chancellery:

1) Treatment of Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree: Persons of mixed blood of the first degree will, as regards the final solution of the Jewish question, be treated as Jews. From this treatment the following exceptions will be made:

 a)   Persons of mixed blood of the first degree married to persons of German blood if their marriage has resulted in children (persons of mixed blood of the second degree).  These persons of mixed blood of the second degree are to be treated essentially as Germans.

b)   Persons of mixed blood of the first degree, for whom the highest offices of the Party and State have already issued exemption permits in any sphere of life. Each individual case must be examined, and it is not ruled out that the decision may be made to the detriment of the person of mixed blood. The prerequisite for any exemption must always be the personal merit of the person of mixed blood. (Not the merit of the parent or spouse of German blood.)

Persons of mixed blood of the first degree who are exempted from evacuation will be sterilized in order to prevent any offspring and to eliminate the problem of persons of mixed blood once and for all.  Such sterilization will be voluntary.  But it is required to remain in the Reich.  The sterilized "person of mixed blood" is thereafter free of all restrictions to which he was previously subjected.

2) Treatment of Persons of Mixed Blood of the Second Degree: Persons of mixed blood of the second degree will be treated fundamentally as persons of German blood, with the exception of the following cases, in which the persons of mixed blood of the second degree will be considered as Jews:

a) The person of mixed blood of the second degree was born of a marriage in which both parents are persons of mixed blood.

b) The person of mixed blood of the second degree has a racially especially undesirable appearance that marks him outwardly as a Jew.

c) The person of mixed blood of the second degree has a particularly bad police and political record that shows that he feels and behaves like a Jew.

Also in these cases exemptions should not be made if the person of mixed blood of the second degree has married a person of German blood.

3) Marriages between Full Jews and Persons of German Blood: Here it must be decided from case to case whether the Jewish partner will be evacuated or whether, with regard to the effects of such a step on the German relatives, [this mixed marriage] should be sent to an old-age ghetto.

4) Marriages between Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree and Persons of German Blood.

a) Without Children.

If no children have resulted from the marriage, the person of mixed blood of the first degree will be evacuated or sent to an old-age ghetto (same treatment as in the case of marriages between full Jews and persons of German blood, point 3.)

b)   With Children.

If children have resulted from the marriage (persons of mixed blood of the second degree), they will, if they are to be treated as Jews, be evacuated or sent to a ghetto along with the parent of mixed blood of the first degree.  If these children are to be treated as Germans (regular cases), they are exempted from evacuation as is therefore the parent of mixed blood of the first degree.

5) Marriages between Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree and Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree or Jews.

In these marriages (including the children) all members of the family will be treated as Jews and therefore be evacuated or sent to an old-age ghetto.

6) Marriages between Persons of Mixed Blood of the First Degree and Persons of Mixed Blood of the Second Degree.

In these marriages both partners will be evacuated or sent to an old-age ghetto without consideration of whether the marriage has produced children, since possible children will as a rule have stronger Jewish blood than the Jewish person of mixed blood of the second degree.

SS-Gruppenführer Hofmann advocates the opinion that sterilization will have to be widely used, since the person of mixed blood who is given the choice whether he will be evacuated or sterilized would rather undergo sterilization.

State Secretary Dr. Stuckart maintains that carrying out in practice of the just mentioned possibilities for solving the problem of mixed marriages and persons of mixed blood will create endless administrative work.  In the second place, as the biological facts cannot be disregarded in any case, State Secretary Dr. Stuckart proposed proceeding to forced sterilization.

Furthermore, to simplify the problem of mixed marriages possibilities must be considered with the goal of the legislator saying something like: "These marriages have been dissolved."

With regard to the issue of the effect of the evacuation of Jews on the economy, State Secretary Neumann stated that Jews who are working in industries vital to the war effort, provided that no replacements are available, cannot be evacuated.

SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich indicated that these Jews would not be evacuated according to the rules he had approved for carrying out the evacuations then underway.

State Secretary Dr. Buehler stated that the General Government would welcome it if the final solution of this problem could be begun in the General Government, since on the one hand transportation does not play such a large role here nor would problems of labor supply hamper this action.  Jews must be removed from the territory of the General Government as quickly as possible, since it is especially here that the Jew as an epidemic carrier represents an extreme danger and on the other hand he is causing permanent chaos in the economic structure of the country through continued black market dealings.  Moreover, of the approximately 2 1/2 million Jews concerned, the majority is unfit for work.

State Secretary Dr. Buehler stated further that the solution to the Jewish question in the General Government is the responsibility of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD and that his efforts would be supported by the officials of the General Government.  He had only one request, to solve the Jewish question in this area as quickly as possible.

In conclusion the different types of possible solutions were discussed, during which discussion both Gauleiter Dr. Meyer and State Secretary Dr. Buehler took the position that certain preparatory activities for the final solution should be carried out immediately in the territories in question, in which process alarming the populace must be avoided.

The meeting was closed with the request of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD to the participants that they afford him appropriate support during the carrying out of the tasks involved in the solution.

The Wannsee meeting:

- took an interest in saving Jewish lives by warning of the ‘dangers’ of emigrating during wartime;

- ordered that ALL Jews aged over 65,  NOT be evacuated East;

- ordered that ALL German Jews who were decorated or wounded World War I veterans NOT be evacuated East;

and

- ordered that ALL Jews working in critical munitions and other factories NOT be evacuated East.

Only in one place do the minutes of the Wannsee meeting suggest (quote) “appropriate action” for a small number of Jews - but, given the context of the quote, the evidence is overwhelming that it was meant that these Jews were to be sterilized so that they could not reproduce.

WANNSEE CONFERENCE MINUTES REVEAL THE TRUTH: JEWISH EMIGRATION AND EVACUATION TO THE EAST

The real purpose of the Wannsee conference is best gained by a simple reading of the minutes of that meeting (all quotes are from the actual Wannsee Minutes, a full copy of which can be found here).

In its own words, the purpose of the conference was to attend to the “expulsion of the Jews from every sphere of life and living space of the German people”.

This aim was to be achieved as follows: “In carrying out these efforts, an increased and planned acceleration of the emigration of the Jews from Reich territory was started, as the only possible present solution.”

As a result of this enforced emigration, “537,000 Jews were sent out of the country between the takeover of power and the deadline of 31 October 1941.” (The “country” in question was Germany).

This emigration was financed by the Jews themselves: “The Jews themselves, or their Jewish political organizations, financed the emigration. In order to avoid impoverished Jews' remaining behind, the principle was followed that wealthy Jews have to finance the emigration of poor Jews; this was arranged by imposing a suitable tax, i.e., an emigration tax, which was used for financial arrangements in connection with the emigration of poor Jews and was imposed according to income.”

NAZI CONCERN FOR JEWISH SAFETY

The Wannsee minutes then show concern for Jewish safety: by placing a ban on emigration during wartime:

“In the meantime the Reichsführer-SS and Chief of the German Police had prohibited emigration of Jews due to the dangers of an emigration in wartime and due to the possibilities of the East.”

Nowhere in the Wannsee Meeting or its minutes is the murder of Jews discussed; only their emigration and evacuation - forced - to the eastern territories opened up after the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

The Wannsee minutes state this aim quite openly:

“III. Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Führer gives the appropriate approval in advance.”

It is alleged that the term “evacuation” as used at Wannsee, meant extermination. There is, simply put, no evidence to support this supposition, and a wealth of evidence to indicate the opposite. For example:

NO JEWS OVER 65 TO BE EVACUATED

The Wannsee conference minutes say:

“It is not intended to evacuate Jews over 65 years old, but to send them to an old-age ghetto--Theresienstadt is being considered for this purpose.”

NO GERMAN JEWISH WORLD WAR ONE VETERANS TO BE EVACUATED

The Wannsee minutes then go on to make special mention of German World War One Jewish veterans in this way:

“In addition to these age groups--of the approximately 280,000 Jews in Germany proper and Austria on 31 October 1941, approximately 30% are over 65 years old--severely wounded veterans and Jews with war decorations (Iron Cross I) will be accepted in the old-age ghettos. With this expedient solution, in one fell swoop many interventions will be prevented.”

NO JEWS WORKING IN “VITAL” INDUSTRIES TO BE EVACUATED

The Wannsee conference also noted that Jews working in industries vital to the war effort are also not to be evacuated:

“With regard to the issue of the effect of the evacuation of Jews on the economy, State Secretary Neumann stated that Jews who are working in industries vital to the war effort, provided that no replacements are available, cannot be evacuated.”

The Wannsee minutes then record that Reinhard Heydrich, often fingered as the mastermind behind the conference, agreed and was recorded so in the minutes:

“SS-Obergruppenführer Heydrich indicated that these Jews would not be evacuated according to the rules he had approved for carrying out the evacuations then underway.”

So, instead of a “blueprint to murder all Jews,” the Wannsee meeting actually took specific steps to protect certain groups of Jews from harm.

NUMBER OF JEWS UNDER GERMAN CONTROL IDENTIFIED

Above: The Wannsee Minutes discuss how many Jews there are in Europe and how many are under German control.

The Wannsee conference then discussed exactly how many Jews would be involved in their planned emigration program.  For this purpose, they divided Europe up into two sections - “A” and “B”.

The “A” territories included Germany and all those countries under direct German occupation: these lands were (with numbers of Jews in parenthesis) : Germany, (131,800); Austria (43,700); Eastern territories (420,000); General Government (2,284,000); Bialystok (400,000); Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia (74,200); Estonia (0); Latvia (3,500); Lithuania (34,000); Belgium (43,000); Denmark (5,600); France /occupied territory (165,000)/ unoccupied territory (700,000); Greece (69,600); Netherlands (160,800); Norway (1,300).

This gives a total of 4,536,500 Jews under German control. This is an important figure, as will be seen presently.

The “B” category countries were those with Jewish populations NOT under German control. These were: Bulgaria (48,000); England (330,000); Finland (2,300); Ireland (4,000); Italy including Sardinia (58,000); Albania (200); Croatia (40,000); Portugal (3,000); Rumania including Bessarabia (342,000); Sweden (8,000); Switzerland (18,000); Serbia (10,000); Slovakia (88,000); Spain (6,000); Turkey (European portion)(55,500); Hungary (742,800); USSR (5,000,000, including as subdivisions the Ukraine (2,994,684) and Byelorussia (446,484).)

This gives a total of 6,755,800 Jews in Europe NOT under direct German control.

These two figures, when added together, give a total of 11,292,300 Jews, of which, by the Nazis own estimates, only 4,536,500 were under German control.

CATEGORY “B” COUNTRIES EXCLUDED FROM GERMAN CONTROL

Of the “B” category countries, the following can be excluded from all calculations: England; Finland; Ireland; Portugal; Sweden; Switzerland; Spain; and Turkey; as none of these countries ever came under German occupation, nor in any way entered the German sphere of influence.

The other “B” category countries were either at some stage allied to Germany or parts thereof were occupied by German troops in combat, mostly against the Soviet Union. The former included Bulgaria; Italy; Croatia; and Rumania; the latter included Serbia; Slovakia; Hungary; parts of the USSR; Ukraine; and White Russia.

NOT ALL JEWS UNDER GERMAN CONTROL

It is however incorrect to assume that because a country was allied to the Germans, that those countries’ Jews were handed over to the Nazis. The most famous example of this is Bulgaria, whose entire Jewish population was protected by that country’s government, as recounted in Jewish historian Martin Gilbert’s Book “The Holocaust” (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1985):

....."Also lucky were forty-eight thousand Jews of Bulgaria: those living within the pre-war borders of the state. At first, it seemed that they too would be deported, as had those from the Bulgarian- occupied zones of Thrace and Macedonia. Following German insistence, the Bulgarian government had indeed ordered the deportation of all Jews from Bulgaria proper, some of whom had already been interned. But the deportation order led to such an outcry from the Bulgarian people, including many intellectuals and church leaders, that the government rescinded the order, and Jews already taken into custody were released. The release of the Jews, which took place on March 10, came to be known in Bulgaria as a 'miracle of the Jewish people'."

(http://www.b-info.com/places/Bulgaria/Jewish/Holocaust.shtml)

The Yad Vashem - Israel’s official Holocaust memorial, itself claims on its website that Denmark only lost 60 Jews dead; that Finland lost 7 Jews dead, that of all Italy’s 58,000 Jews (by Nazi estimates) were reduced by only 7,600 and so on. (Yad Vahsem, http://212.143.122.31/about_holocaust/faqs/answers/faq_4.html)

 RUSSIAN JEWS FLEE INVADING GERMANS

 The German invasion of the Soviet Union, which started on 21 June 1941, would not have captured all the 5 million Jews which the Wannsee minutes calculated were present in this region.

Millions upon millions of Jews were evacuated by the Soviets themselves, or fled the advancing German troops.

Those Jews who stayed behind became the subject of German “Einsatzgruppen” or Special Action Group units. These Einsatzgruppen were sent in behind German lines with the express orders of fighting partisans, and then killing what remained of the Communist party infrastructure in the occupied areas of the Soviet Union.

EINSATZGRUPPEN EXAGGERATIONS

Due to the high number of Jews in the Soviet Communist party infrastructure (the Wannsee minutes actually make mention that over 23 percent of all Soviet Jews were employed by the state) this of course meant that many Jews became the target of the Einsatzgruppen.

Although a final figure of Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen has never been presented, the most extreme estimates by Yad Vashem and others say that between 900,000 and 1.25 million people - Jews and others - were killed by the special action units.

This figure is without doubt a gross exaggeration, considering that the Einsatzgruppen never had more than 3,000 men in total serving in its units at any one time, and furthermore spent most of their time fighting partisans.

But even if this grossly exaggerated figure is accurate - and all evidence is that it is not - this grandiose figure is still nowhere near the 5 million Jews the Nazis estimated were in the Soviet Union’s territory.

ONLY 4.5 MILLION JEWS UNDER NAZI CONTROL

The point of this is that of the 6.7 million Jews estimated by the Nazis themselves to be in the category “B” countries; almost none actually fell into Nazi hands.

The category ‘A” country figure of 4.5 million Jews can therefore be taken as the most reliable estimate of the number of Jews who actually fell into Nazi hands, give or take a few hundred thousand.

4.3 MILLION JEWS CLAIM COMPENSATION FROM POST WAR GERMAN GOVERNMENT

And this is where the figures get interesting: this figure of 4,536,500 Jews is important when it is considered that, until the end of 1987, some 4,384,138 individual claims for compensation had been made by Holocaust survivors against the post war German government. (This figure is provided by the German government itself on its official website, (http://eng.bundesregierung.de/frameset/index.jsp).

This means, by the Nazis’ own reckoning, that of the estimated 4.5 million Jews directly under their control in 1942, at least 4.3 million had claimed compensation from the German government for persecution by 1987.

These figures by themselves speak volumes about the true number of Jewish casualties during the war.

WANNSEE MINUTES DETAIL JEWISH FORCED LABOR

The Wannsee minutes do not end there though: they go on to specifically state what is to be done with able bodied Jews once they have been evacuated and resettled in the Eastern territories:

“Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.”

This is the first mention of Jews dying - not by execution, but by “natural causes” be it disease or whatever.

“APPROPRIATE ACTION” FOR SURVIVORS OF FORCED LABOR

Then comes the only part of the Wannsee minutes which could be interpreted in a sinister fashion. Following directly on the remark that a large portion of able bodied Jews will be eliminated by natural causes, the relevant sentence reads:

“The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)”

What the minutes say here is that those Jews who are put to hard, forced labor on building roads in the East, and who survived the ardors of such forced labor, will represent the strongest elements of the Jews. These will have to be “treated accordingly” because if released, would act as the seed of Jewish revival.

It is alleged that this sentence means that these Jews - who, important to note, are not all the Jews, but only a small select group - were meant to be killed.

Read in context of the entire document, this conclusion is spurious.

“APPROPRIATE ACTION” MEANT STERILIZATION

Firstly, elsewhere in the Wannsee minutes, as already pointed out, specific mention is made of saving Jews from the ‘dangers of wartime emigration’ and even not evacuating certain classes of Jews.

To kill Jews on the one hand, and save whole groups on the other - was obviously not the intention of the Wannsee meeting or its minutes. It is lunacy to even suggest so.

The reference to “appropriate treatment” clearly means that these Jews are to be sterilized so that they cannot have children, a fact which becomes obvious when the very next section of the Wannsee minutes is read.

The next section - in fact one of single longest sections of the entire minutes - deals with which Jews should be evacuated, and how persons of mixed Jewish - German ancestry are to be handled, with the answer being to sterilize certain highly mixed groups rather than evacuating them.

To quote this section of the Wannsee minutes:

“Persons of mixed blood of the first degree who are exempted from evacuation will be sterilized in order to prevent any offspring and to eliminate the problem of persons of mixed blood once and for all. Such sterilization will be voluntary. But it is required to remain in the Reich. The sterilized "person of mixed blood" is thereafter free of all restrictions to which he was previously subjected.”

And

“SS-Gruppenführer Hofmann advocates the opinion that sterilization will have to be widely used, since the person of mixed blood who is given the choice whether he will be evacuated or sterilized would rather undergo sterilization.”

And

“State Secretary Dr. Stuckart maintains that carrying out in practice of the just mentioned possibilities for solving the problem of mixed marriages and persons of mixed blood will create endless administrative work. In the second place, as the biological facts cannot be disregarded in any case, State Secretary Dr. Stuckart proposed proceeding to forced sterilization.”

Read in this context, the meaning of the “appropriate action” remark becomes plain: by this it was meant to sterilize those Jews who had survived the forced labor in the East.

In conclusion then, the following can be said:

1. The Wannsee meeting and its minutes do not contain a master plan to kill Jews;

2. Nowhere in the meeting’s minutes is genocide discussed, planned, proposed or even suggested;

3. The number of Jews under Nazi control was estimated by the Nazis themselves to be in the region of 4.5 million (yet 4.3 million Jewish compensation claims have been lodged against the post war German government);

4. The Wannsee meeting was a planning meeting on how Europe’s Jews should be deported, via transit camps, to the East; with able bodied Jews being forced to build roads and other labor intensive tasks in those regions;

5. The most “sinister” part of the Wannsee minutes suggests that appropriate action, which, in the context of the document, clearly means sterilization, be applied to those able bodied Jews who survive the forced labor in the East;

6. The Wannsee conference also made allowance for specific exceptions to Jewish evacuation, such as Jewish German World War One veterans; ALL Jews over the age of 65; and ALL Jews working in industries vital to the German war effort, to be released from the threat of evacuation and be allowed to stay in Germany.

 To allege that the Wannsee conference was anything else than this, is a pure fabrication at best, and an outright lie at worst.

Keep making noise.  Whoever it is who's keeping information from us, or spreading disinformation will be made clear the more you bicker, all over the internet and all over the public.

Eventually we're going to get someone to go and find out, one way or the other, what's actually happened.

I honestly don't know if it was a hoax or not.  Both sides have such weird inconsistencies.

Isn't it a little suspicious that this was supposed to be some secret conspiracy by the Germans? The official records contradict the holocaust story and some of the testimonies, but some of the testimonies say that they didn't experience any of those things. I mean I've seen pictures of dead bodies in mass graves, and somehow that is supposed to mean that somebody got gassed. 30 people in a mass grave looks like a lot, I couldn't imagine millions. Stalin couldn't hide the people he massacred over many years, and yet somehow the nazis were able to over a short period of time during a war with a strain on their resources. The holocaust sounds like a good ol' nutcake conspiracy to me the more I read. Why didn't they test the bodies for gas residue or stuff like that? Why no autopsies? Why would the nazis use gas when bullets are cheaper? The testimonies conflict with each other, the physical evidence, and the actual claims the nazis made, and nobody can decide on a number. Some of the testimonial claims were just plain insane and impossible, and many sound physically possible but not realistically pheasible. The documentation goes against the German 'holocaust' conspiracy idea.

Maybe there wasn't a conspiracy on either side? Who needs a conspiracy when you've got massive anger and resentment going around. Nobody liked the nazis even if they didn't kill six million people in concentration camps. Some people benefited from this stuff, so they just looked out for numero uno and other people started catching on. I mean, how hard can it be to fake a holocaust survivor claim and make up a story? It isn't like people don't lie, and money will get people to do anything.

I tend to think that a whole bunch of rumors got started and some people just decided to run with it. Some people wanted attention and money I guess. It's not new.

If this really was such a huge conspiracy, why didn't they come up with better cover story?  Sometimes I think someone is just making shit up...

>>95

Quote:
Every apparently suboptimal action you can explain through either stupidity or cunning malintent.

Well. I'm going to go with stupidity here. The answer? There was no big conspiracy. Just a whole bunch of little lies that outgrew their breeches. It happens. We know world isn't flat anymore and the earth doesn't revolve around the sun and the Nazis didn't kill six million Jews.

Bleh, no biggie. Just don't say anything to a Jew cause they'll throttle you, call you an anti-semite, smear you, and throw you in jail if they can. That's more important than the asinine realization that mobs of people can lie for personal benefit.

Feh.

>>96

I don't know why every one is blaming the Jews for the nazi who got thrown in jail in Germany. There actully aren't that many Jews in Germany. I wonder why...

You should write a Wikipedia article

hey all you fucking holocaust denying idiots
my great grandfather survived the shit
he heard rumors, ran off to france and when the nazis invaded there they started moving trains of them auschwits
he's fucking told me about when you first went in you were in a line.  if you were "lucky" enough to be healthy enough for slave labor you were put in one line.  if the doc examined you and decided you wernt you went to the other line.  people in the other line were never seen again.

and dumbfuck while the slave labor was going on the germans would come to the rabbis and ask them to gather up the younger males and they were never seen again. hhmmmmmmm

why the fuck would my grandpa lie about this shit?  don't make much sense what did he have to gain?  plus, you forget about the thousands of documents of nazi fucks reporting to hitler how many jews they murdered that day

The jews want us to remember.....

All I remember is them getting fucking OWNED!!

100GET

>>99
gb2 oven

Thus proving, that all Holocaust Deniers want to believe that Jews have been trying to take over the world, which is certainly more plausible than a nation spouting horrific anti-semitic rhetoric actually exterminating them.

Proof this Jewish conspiracy to me, where are their documents?
List "Protocols of Zion" and you insta-fail, as that is an admitted propaganda work of the USSR.

>>99
read the entire thread or GTFO.

SOYLENT GREEN!!

>>99
Your grandmother is a pice of soap lol.

lol @ 17 year olds talking about politics on 4chan

>>99 go dai you jew lol

cartman onws joo(pun INTENDED MUTHA FUCKA )

Holocaust happened. Planes flew into towers. We landed on moon. Elvis is dead. Tupac is dead. Steve Irwin is dead. Jews don't run world. Conspiracy theorists are experts at twisting the facts and making it seem like they have hard evidence. Refuting all their evidence would likely take forever to research and be a gigantic waste of time and in general a big headache.

>>108
You're almost right. Elvis might still live. Tupac is about 99% dead. Holocaust happened, but no-one knows true death toll could be higher or lower than accepted 6 million. Jews don't run the world, but banking establishments do basically run money world. We landed on the moon for sure, but there might be something that NASA isn't telling about moon. There is no real questions of 911 however.

>>109 I still wonder about the strange heat sources at ground zero. Like, too many question marks, not to mention a laughable, half-hearted official investigation.

>>109
You're almost right. Elvis lives. Tupac was jesus. Holocaust didn't happen. Jews, grey aliens and the illuminati run the world by sleight of hand, every major event is their orchestration, all banks are owned by jews. We didn't land on the moon for sure, the moon doesn't even exist, but there is a secret base there. Jews did wtc.

>>110
Jews. Probably some FAGGOTS aswell.

200 000 dead in Darfur in 3 years by a poorly organised Arab militia and being displaced.

Is anyone telling me that the biggest military power in Europe could not pull off millions in more years and with an organised infrastrucure to do it.

>>108
THe moon landing was fake

Anyone dumb enough to believe it didn't happen doesn't deserve an intelligent arguement.

EW, JEWS!

!SWEJ, WE

NEVER JEW A JEW