Governments determine human rights

Discuss.

You (or any person) subjectively determine human rights.
Many people make up the government.
It's your (or any voter's) responsibility to keep the government run by sane people.

And what if the creator's of the constitution failed, huh? Look, Hitler was elected, but he could easily determine the human rights. Also voter's stupidity is no excuse for being an asshole.
But do I even disagree?

Depends on what you mean by "human rights". In the legal sense of what the UN has promulgated? Then yes, of course governments determine them. If you mean something that is philosophically independent of a legal system, ie rights in a moral sphere, then it's entirely up to your system of philosophy whether they exist outside of a single human or a group of humans, or whether they are dependent on the experiential frame of any particular person.

Mill has a position on "rights" in general that I have always appreciated. He doesn't believe that there are such things, or that if there are they shouldn't enter into social and legal discussions. His argument is essentially that rights have no real basis in fact since there's nothing you can point to that enforces them or reasons them into existence. You'd need a deity or some other human precedent for them to exist. Instead, Mill argues for social and legal contracts based on the greatest "good" (the most benefit in practical and philosophical terms) for the greatest number of people. He uses this as a basis for his entire argument for personal liberty in "On Liberty", which I consider a must read for any citizen in a modern democratic state.

Not to mention in Thailand, the Thai PM is abusing human rights.

Human rights are a political creation on the basis of enlightenment philosophy and practical compromise. There's no higher authority to judge us, but to live and prosper, we make helpful rules. Taht's it.

chinas quasi-slave-labor scam wont last forever

they will have their revolution

China had their revolution. They've used up their revolution quota, and they don't have any elixirs to restore their mana. I predict that China will continue on its way and the old communists will die out and be replaced by eager young Chinese businessmen (not women) who will follow the Japanese economic miracle and will make the world their fuck toy.

yep, basically the migration from the country to the city has begun already, and all those peasants that normally revolt will become city people in search of television

orly >>8
why is it that chinas elite are buying real estate properties like "theres no tomorrow" ... always OUTSIDE of china (safehouses)

who has been largest buyer of gold the past few years... china
(protip: precious metals by tonnage - not for the micro amounts required in manufacturing processes.... holding metals is disaster insurance - the most physical wealth possible)

the ruling elite is all _but_ secure in their respective positions... their paranoia in world-markets reflects how tenuous by the day their grasp on the country is becoming

take a ridiculous example like the plotline to that 'made for export' movie `hero`, the message was to sacrifice an exceptional superior individual to the status quo...
the fact that they wave around this most obvious flaw/fear in their system to try and reassure themselves is a blatant sign of desperation visibile through their state-dictated 'pop culture'

if chinas next/fresh generation of non-elites gets educated... they will likely not fall for the 5000 year trick of: "for the good of the many"
oh and attempts at chinese trade unions are an exercise in futility under the current economic regime
the coast of china is where everything is prettied up, the coast is where the rubber meets the road..
inland is where the slave labor and unspeakable human rights violations go on, we will never hear about it

but until then, china's elite is using cutting edge technology to enforce their police state for as long as they can sustain it....
the fortunate few friends of ruling elite are granted license to be capitalist(ohno) and abuse the hell out of the lower classes, for fun and profit (ysup thr manufacturing jobs at 2c/hr)

its a fairly old scam, really..

The Chinese elite have no qualms about culling the herd every now and then. IIRC, at one point ethnic han population dropped by half thanks to yet-another-round-of-civil-war during the ancient times. So pass the anthrax and give me my cropduster, we'll go on a flight in the countryside.

The one thing that will always be true is that any government breeds corruption. Placing human rights in the hands of any government is a mistake. Unfortunately, so many people are so mindless that they actually need someone else to TELL them their rights. I suppose when you compare anarchy and govermentally mandated human rights, the latter is the lesser of two evils...

Although I`d be very curious to give anarchy a try.

>>12
Please try living in South Chicago or perhaps East LA if you'd like some anarchy. If the US style anarchy isn't your thing, then try moving to Iraq, or to any of the fabulous African nations embroiled in bitter internal wars.

Anarchy is futile, every example of it in history that extended beyond the primitive village commune collapsed into war and despotic chieftainships. One man will always be stronger than the others and will kill you.

>>13 While what you say is true, I really don`t have any great desire to see the world get completely thrown into upheaveal. I`ve read the books and know well enough that anarchy doesn`t work. I`m simply stating a curiosity to experience it first-hand. Curiosity killed the cat, perhaps, but it`s also rather hard to quell.

Although the mandating of human rights by any government sounds almost as equally dangerous. In the end what it really comes down to is that despite our many technological and philisophical advances, the human race doesn`t have enough common sense to fill a thimble, and is, in the end, doomed.

The only real question is, what do we do until then?

Aborn!

Thread revival.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

dayum, 2½ year, your necromancy skills are l337

>>8

Japan wasn't so much of a 'miracle' as their economy was nurtured by the US, deliberately intending for it to be very healthy. After the US nuked them, of course.

we talking geneva convention human rights or general human rights?

now, which government?

bump

I heard this needed a bump

Yeah why do people think life in the US is soooo bad?

Try living in Uganda! Americans have it so easy yet act like their government is the worst thing on the planet.

Brendan, an excellent point that many Americans forget. Things aren't that bad here...yet. But, more and more Americans are becoming aware of where we're headed and where we're headed is turning into a country that is not only aware of how people are forced to live in places like Uganda, but we actively take advantage of their poverty for our own gain. We plunder natural resources, exploit workers willing to work for pennies and we actively shape their governments toward our own ends. It is now possible for the POTUS to assassinate people he deems worthy of assassination, even if they're U.S. citizens. Imagine if that power is eventually grandfathered to someone like Rick Santorum in some future election. It's getting scary here. Things are not moving in a positive direction here, and it's probably going to take hyperbole and a lot of bitching to reverse course. We need to keep things in perspective, yes, but we also need to be aware of the potential evil that's on the horizon.

cdszxddd

>>26
The problem isnt that US is the enemy of Uganda. The problem is that Uganda's own elites are the enemies of their own people. I.e. the people of Uganda have no friends.

>>28
I.e. elites should constantly feed unrest and organize revolts, so that U.S. will have hard times controlling the territory, but instead elites prefer to cooperate with the aliens.

aliens .. who knew !

>>30
The Enemy should be stripped of a human character.