OK, so, I've just finished learning my kana and want to go onto kanji. Heisig was good but a touch too dull for my liking, so I'm going to try out Kanjidamage.
All I'd like to know is, what exactly do I learn? Just the mnemonic/keyword, or the kunyomi, jukugo, etc.?
It just seems like an overwhelming amount to learn for each one the first time through, and I'd like to know how others who have used it went about it.
>>4
Learn everything. As long as you're learning something, that's enough.
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Anonymous2011-08-08 0:21
I've been using kanjidamage for a couple of weeks and so far I've learned quite a lot. The mnemonics made it easy to tatoo the info in my brain, so far so good. I would recommend complementing it with Anki (download the kanjidamage deck from the same program.)
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Anonymous2011-08-08 2:22
>>6
Are you just the learning the mnemonics, or the kunyomi as well?
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Anonymous2011-08-08 19:30
>>7
Onyomi, kunyomi and meanings. At the beginning you might feel a little overwhelmed but after a couple of days you start to pick up the pace and the info will keep flowing into your head easily. Oh and try to write down the kanjis, that helps A LOT, write 'em in paint if you are lazy like me.
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Anonymous2011-08-09 3:47
>>8
Thanks a lot, I'll do that. How many kanji did/do you do daily? I'm aiming for 15/day myself, the way I see it I should be done before the end of the year.
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Anonymous2011-08-09 5:20
kanjidamage newbie myself here. Can someone tell me what the punctuation means in the kunyomi readings? For 'dream come true' the kunyomi is put as: ( が ) かな＊う
Why is that が seperated by brackets, and what does the asterisk between な and う mean?
Sorry about this...
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Anonymous2011-08-09 11:10
>>10
夢が叶う （ゆめがかなう） means "the dream will come true".
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Anonymous2011-08-09 11:10
p.s. kanjidamage sucks.
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Anonymous2011-08-09 12:45
>>10
the kana in brackets are particles used with the kunyomi reading.
Also all the info on that site is there for you to learn it. You learn the jukugo, the kun, the on, and the radicals. Ideally, you come to start making your own mnemonics that help YOU remember kanji more than what Schultz puts, although his are funny as shit.
At my highest rate i did 15 a day. I made flashcards for each one and took them around with me and memorized them when I had free time.
>>13
Thank you, your explanation is very much appreciated.
Schultz's How To page recommends you ignore the jukugo as a beginner, but wasn't very clear as to what you SHOULD take in as a beginner. So, other than that, I'll do what you did - the kun, the on, and the radicals.
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Anonymous2011-08-10 1:45
>>14
I'm telling you you SHOULD learn jukugo (at the very least the examples with the kanji) because it does help aid in remembering kanji and also of course raises your vocabulary.
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Anonymous2011-08-10 4:40
>>15
Hmmm, OK, I'll give it a try. Did you learn grammar on the side at the same time during this?
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Anonymous2011-08-10 6:55
Perfect thread, I was looking for something like this.
Much like OP, I have recently gotten the kana under my belt successfully. I'm using Genki I-II for my grammar, and I'll be using KanjiDamage for my Kanji, as it was mostly recommended. However, upon looking over KanjiDamage, I'm finding a lot of the material to be confusing. Perhaps someone could help me out and explain a couple things.
The ONyomi (Ichi, Itsu)[一] are to be used in conjugation form. This I get. However, when looking at the KUNyomi, things start to differ a bit.
The KUNyomi reading for one is ひと*つ. I'm to understand this reading is only to be used in singular form, like all other KUN readings, however what is the * and the つ in that reading supposed to mean? I'm not sure how to use either of the two with the reading of ひと.
Also, there are very many Jukugo for this reading. Are easy individual one supposed to be memorized at that point? If so, doesn't going in the "RAD Order" become defeated when you're learning advanced characters this early on? What's more, is the a way to tell which reading to use between conjugations and singular references? As in, does one have to memorize the Jukugo in order to discern reading Ichi/Itsu from Hito?
Anything that would help me understand these questions and start me on my way towards Kanji would be amazing.
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Anonymous2011-08-10 13:10
>>17
Hi, OP again. Great to talk to a fellow noob at this. From the 'How to', I've determined that the asterisk (*) in the KUNyomi readings are meant to, quote, "show where the okurigana begin. For instance, if the kanji is 食 and the kunyomi is た＊べる, then it's normally written 食べる."
Also, I'm really starting to wonder about what >>15 told me about jukugo...why should I (try to) learn kanji I haven't come to yet? Schultz himself says not to bother with jukugo the first time around.
Genki is a great resource in my opinion. I've been working with it for a few weeks now and it's very organized in how they explain use of particles and other sentence structures. At chapter 4 they completely cut any use of Romanji so we can get a better feel for reading pure Japanese. The first volume only covers a hundred or so Kanji, as does the second book. That's not really a problem though considering the texts aren't used to specifically learn Kanji, but allow users to understand the principals of the language. I'd recommend the text in full, but the price can be expensive if you don't find a copy you can pirate somewhere. If you're looking for a free online alternative, Tae Kim's Grammar Guide is perhaps very comparable.
Your explanation on the asterisk use makes a little more sense to me now. However, when you put the Kanji and the Okurigana together and it becomes 食べる, where does the た disappear to in it's KUNyoomi reading of た＊べる? I think that's the part which might be confusing me the most. I'll do a little wikipedia reading of how to better use Okurigana; maybe that will help shed the light on some things.
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Anonymous2011-08-10 17:27
>>19
Truth be told, I've had both volumes of Genki sitting on my desktop for a week or so now, heh...just wondering if I should finish doing my kanji first or do some grammar on the side. I think I will, now, it seems simple enough to follow. Thank you.
Good luck with the okurigana, too, I can't really help much there, as it's confused me too. Can I also ask: how are you finding memorising KUNyomi readings? The fact there aren't any mnemonics for them is a little jarring (as that's what usually makes the ONyomi easy for me), and just trying to force them in through repetition/Anki is having mixed results for me so far.
Flashcards, a multitude of them. Both in Anki, and with my physically writing them on flash cards. The reason I do both is because it strengthens reinforcement when you have to work with your materials often. I went through Pharmacy school and graduated perhaps a year ago and learned the magic behind flash cards and repetition. For the mind to fully utilize it's retention and memorizing abilities, learning 5 a day max is the best amount. What's more, doing your flash cards right before bed also helps with the reinforcement as the kanji, readings, et al float in your subconscious for the remainder of your sleep cycle.
Seems I'll have some googling around to do yet before I can fully utilize KanjiDamage to the extent I want to. Guess it's just a matter of getting used to their format; it's new to me yet.
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Anonymous2011-08-10 18:04
I just had a revolution. A lot of the Okurigana that I'm seeing from the Wikipedia explanation of them can be found in earlier gramatical teachings through Tae Kim's Grammar Guide, found here: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar
I forget where exactly in the exercises I saw them, just that I remember seeing them. I think what I plan to do before going into KanjiDamage any further is to go over Tae Kim's Guide and gather better fundamentals on verb and adjective particles. I think this is what might be making it difficult for me when attempting to understand the KUN readings on KanjiDamage.
Yeah it's a bit sketchy for me, but this is what I'm starting to understand.
Example:
一
ONyomi: Ichi, Itsu
KUNyomi: ひと*つ (One * thing)
ひと, or Hito, is the KUN reading for this Kanji. The つ after the asterisk is an Okurigana which is attached to the KUN reading to make it more specific. In this case, attaching つ to ひと, making it ひとつ means "One [X]", where X is a thing. Otherwise it would just be ひと, making it ambiguous and hard to discern what the "one" is. There are many other Okurigana including ones which are multiple Hiragana put together to imply different terms such as verbs, adjectives, nouns and the like.
This is just what I'm taking away from my little bit of research and googling around. Hopefully it makes sense to you too.
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Anonymous2011-08-10 21:12
You guys really shouldn't be getting stuck on "one"...
It's kanji, just memorize it. You'll learn how to "read" when you actually learn the language.
Oh it's not that we're getting stuck on one, it's the Okurigana that's confusing us, not the actual Kanji and meaning. As in, when to use it, and what it's meaning is in relation to the KUN saying.
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Anonymous2011-08-10 22:18
>>26
Okurigana should not confuse you. It's just something you learn as you keep going. Things will make more sense when you stop trying to make sense of them.
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Anonymous2011-08-11 3:25
>>24
Thanks. that's helped rationalise it a bit. How many kanji into Kanjidamage are you in right now?
>>25
It's less a case of being stuck and more one of trying to make sure we know what we're actually doing before we do it. I don't to have to get 1000~ in and realise I've been missing something/doing something wrong.
Not very, I've been into Genki this entire time so I've got maybe 50 total under my belt right now. I'm trying to pick KanjiDamage up as another source because Genki only gives you a few hundred, whereas KanjiDamage gives you 1,000+ necessary Kanji.
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Anonymous2011-08-11 5:12
>>29
Oh, not far off me, then. I only really started this week at 15/day, so I'm at 45 (well, 60 by tonight, really). I'm going to start Genki on the side now, too, though.
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Anonymous2011-08-11 10:56
Are there any good Genki decks anyone recommends?
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Anonymous2011-08-12 6:19
Glad I found this thread.
Seriously, how the hell do you remember kunyomi? I can get Onyomi easily, thanks to the mnemonics most likely, but goddamn, I can barely remember the kuns, and I'm fucked if there's more than one. What do you guys do?
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Anonymous2011-08-12 6:59
>>32
Don't stress about the kunyomis too much. You'll get them once you start actually reading text. They are just words like in English or German or whatever language. There's no shortcut to learning them.
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Anonymous2011-08-12 10:20
>33
OK, thanks. That's reassuring. It was just that my ONyomi retention is way ahead of KUNyomi retention, so I was worried there was some trick or something I was missing that others weren't.
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Anonymous2011-08-12 15:22
i use kanjidamage, trying to remember everything but the jukugo. I'm about 200 in. should i start trying to learn grammar on the side or just get the kanji done first? what do you fellas do/recommend?
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Anonymous2011-08-14 4:59
Just learning kanji is boring, and I never felt like I was really making progress. When I'm learning grammar I feel like I am actually making progress. It feels good to read about something, then notice it when you are watching anime.
I've learned the first 300 kanji about 3 times so far. Then I get bored and forget them all. I'm pretty horrible at this language thing.
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Anonymous2011-08-14 8:30
>>36
You're retarded. Every knows kanji is stupid but they do it anyway. And, comparatively, you aren't learning a goddamn thing. You're learning how to learn; you're learning how to "read" without actually learning. Learning the onyomi to 庫 doesn't do a goddamn thing. No one is going to ask you "Oh hey, what are the three or four ways this can be pronounced again?" because the average Japanese doesn't think about it that way. You learn 金庫 and 車庫 and maybe 庫 but then never deal with the goddamn thing again except when you try to remember how to write the shit. Kanjidamage should only be used as a supplement to a program that actually TEACHES you Japanese.
>>37
>Kanjidamage should only be used as a supplement to a program that actually TEACHES you Japanese.
The purpose of Kanjiidamage is not to teach you Japanese. It is to help you memorise Kanji, its readings, and some compounds. It's not like you finish Kanjidamage and come out knowing the language. It's a tool to help. Use Genki or Tae Kim at the same time.
You sound quite bitter about it, though. How are you going about your Japanese?
>>39
I'm not bitter, merely expressing frustration towards >>36 because he believes he isn't doing anything towards, as he puts it, "this language thing" because he doesn't find learning kanji as interesting. In my opinion, Kanjidamage is a source of entertainment. You can memorize the stroke order and reading of kanji in any order you like. All it does is present you with mnemonics, as if you can't do that yourself. I much prefer readthekanji.com, as it gives you kanji, vocab, structure grammar, English translation, onyomi, kunyomi, stroke order, common words, and usage all at once. You learn to read, not how to memorize that 乏 means "shoddy".
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Anonymous2011-08-15 14:31
Do yourself a favour and use RTK tbh. Works perfect and the reading is better to learn in sentences anyways...
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Anonymous2011-08-15 16:56
>>41
Fair enough, guy, you just sounded like you were frustrated about it. Admittedly >>36 should not give up that easily.
Personally I'm sticking with Kanjidamage - mainly because I do enjoy most of the mnemonics anyway (though I do mix and match with my own) - really, though, I don't think most of us can honestly say we can be bothered to make up our own mnemonics for 2000~ kanji.
Also, readthekanji.com looks pretty good, but 'kanji, vocab, structure grammar, English translation, onyomi, kunyomi, stroke order, common words, and usage all at once' sounds pretty overwhelming for a first runthrough - which is basically OP's problem, I think. Also most of us, me in included, are cheap fucks anyway.
>>42
Personal preference. Tried Heisig for a month, was going OK, then just preferred Kanjidamage. It's the same in principle of course, but I just preferred how it was laid out.
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Anonymous2011-08-15 19:04
>>43
JLPT 4 practice on Read the Kanji is free and you can cement a few hundred kanji with paying a dollar. When I say that all of those things are part of the curriculum, that doesn't mean you NEED to learn them at the same time. RTK is a flashcard format and you can customize what is displayed. If you merely want to study kanji, you can select to have nothing but kanji displayed. Clicking on the kanji themselves gives you flashcards with on, kun, common usages, stroke order, etc.
I "know" about 700 kanji, though I can recognize and READ over 1100 words using the 700 or so I know by heart.
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Anonymous2011-08-16 5:24
>44
Again, it sounds good, but it's still not really anything I can't do with Anki and Kanjidamage. It does look very nicely presented, though.
And 700/1100 words is good going. What sort of pace are you going at for new kanji daily?
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Anonymous2011-08-16 10:23
I'll ask again - can anyone recommend me some good Anki decks for/to use with Genki?
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Anonymous2011-08-16 12:19
>>45
We're getting into my personal study habits, and the truth of it is I don't use readthekanji as much as I should. Thus the reason I put "know" in quotations in >>44 . I probably "know" a few hundred more than that, but around 700 is only what I've been tested on. I've gotten to a point where I find it more beneficial to read everything, Japanese novels, dictionaries, blogs, news, etc. to learn kanji and vocab that I'm missing.
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Anonymous2011-08-18 15:05
Hmmm, I'm thinking of starting with kanjidamage myself. The general consensus is to try to pick up kunyomi but not worry too much if you can't get it as you'll pick it up later?
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Anonymous2011-08-20 4:54
Now about 200 in, forgetting KUNyomi at a faster rate than I'd like. Should I use genki or something at the same time?
His tone aside, I would like to second while he is saying. At this stage you really just need to focus on being able to recognize/write the kanji. When you are learning vocabulary you will pick up the readings naturally.
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Anonymous2011-08-29 4:22
>>53
Thanks. That's a big help.
Can I get some opinions of whether or not I should be using Tae Kim or Genki at the same time?
>>53
Any and all information you can soak up is helpful. If you find something in one that isn't in the other, great.
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Anonymous2011-09-04 7:51
>>55
Thanks.
Can we just share how we each picked up our kanji?
I've been working a fairly steady 15/day with onyomi/kunyomi readings. Currently know 400+; aim to finish before Christmas. Toying around with the idea of picking up grammar on the side, but the 200~ Anki reps a day a sort of keeping me busy anyway already.
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Anonymous2011-09-04 8:35
>>56
I wrote all my flashcards by hand and took them with me throughout my day. In the beginning it was 10 a day, at points it slowed down to under 10, then during the last 1000 or so it was 15 a day.
You can study grammar if you want, but when you actually start reading things you will have plenty of time to observe and take not of grammar patterns. I recommend JRPGs once you get over 1500. My first all Japanese game was Tales of Phantasia on psp.
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Anonymous2011-09-08 14:29
>>57
Thanks.
Anyone else wanna share how they did this?
As a veteran Japanese student the best advice I can give anyone regarding this subject is DO NOT learn kanji one by one. The SINGLE biggest hurdle in language learning is the vocabulary, I promise grammar will feel like a footnote if you never have to spend your time floundering with all the words in the sentence before you can begin the real analysis. Just dive in and learn a word for every one of the Jouyou kanji. You will kick yourself for the rest of your Japanese learning life if you sit around making up ridiculous stories for months on in only to forget all the keywords by the time you're as far along as I am (2 years, not including the time I wasted on Heisig.) I don't regret Heisig, as it and systems like it have their merits, but I should have learned a word for each kanji as I went through. Work smarter not harder, make the readings come to you by learning ACTUAL words and by the time you finish you'll have nigh on 2,000 words under your belt PLUS the kanji and that my friend is a respectable vocabulary. If you have any questions I'll be happy to answer them.
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Anonymous2011-09-16 16:51
>>61
Thanks for your input, friend. How shall I say this...I'm now 600+ kanji into Kanjidamage, working at a pace I'm comfortable at (15 new with ~200 Anki reviews per day), so I think it's too late to just suddenly stop and break it off to pick up words. This way at least I have a very clear starting point, ending point, as well as knowing what I should be doing. Sure, that sounds like I want my hand held the whole way, but as a beginner, I frankly do.
I guess what I'm saying is despite what you've said, I'll continue as I think it's working for me. All i feel bad about is that I'm forgetting kunyomi more often than I'd like, and that I should maybe be using Genki or something at the same time.
which is a no-brainer. learn some jukugo that use the individual kanji you are learning as you learn them, like they do on Kanjidamage.
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Anonymous2011-12-04 19:30
Anyone here actually finished Kanjidamage?
I'm almost there...what do I do afterward?
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Anonymous2011-12-05 23:40
>>64
Fuckin read shit, write down more kanji you come across but don't know and learn jukugo. You will be at the point of reading but you will of course be encountering words you don't know all the time.
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Anonymous2011-12-06 9:48
>>64
Oh by the way, I didn't do the kunyomi. Is that bad?
....What do you mean how? How are you learning on-yomi? Kanjidamage has the kun-yomi for kanji on each page if it has it. You memorize it. Look for sentences with it for context. Make sentences with it.
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Anonymous2011-12-09 18:41
>>69
If you're asking someone how to "learn" something, you've failed as a human being.
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Anonymous2011-12-11 9:32
>>70
Thanks. The onyomi on Kanjidamage have mnemonics, so they're pretty easy. Kunyomi don't. That's why my onyomi retention far outweighs my kunyomi.
>>71
Should have phrased that better. I more meant 'What's the best way to go about it', but didn't. Sorry about that.
Also, out of curiosity, what od people who complete RTK do? Do they start again with onyomi and kunyomi?
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Anonymous2011-12-12 21:48
>>72
RTK isn't set up to learn Kun and on-yomi along the way? Why would people learn with that? You wouldn't be able to "read" anything.
>>76
er, instead of memorizing a list of readings*
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Anonymous2011-12-13 15:34
>>76
No. I learn meaning, readings, compounds, and why that kanji is made up of those radicals.
Anyway, pick your program and fuck with it until it fits you.
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Anonymous2011-12-22 15:26
So, kunyomi - brute memorisation would seem to be the only way, huh? Is this how you all did it? No mnemonics, no grouping, nothing?
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Anonymous2011-12-22 16:37
>>79
it's hard making mnemonics for kunyomi, since it sounds like nothing but a japanese word.
memorization. see it enough times until it is burned into your brain. helps if you see it in context.
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Anonymous2011-12-30 16:22
Cigány orbán a kurva anyád!!!!!
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Anonymous2012-01-08 12:53
Can anyone here who's finished memorising all their kanji, whether they used Kanjidamage or not, tell me what they went on to do directly afterwards? Start learning grammar rules?
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Anonymous2012-01-08 20:38
>>82
grammar studied simultaneous/slightly before. download the pdf of Barron's japanese grammar book. I proceeded to read a lot of shit via games.