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日語 Japanese Ask Questions Thread2 質問

Name: Anon 2008-03-22 1:37

If you have a question about the language, ask it and fellow 4channers might see it and answer it for you.

Japanese - Ask questions thread
http://dis.4chan.org/read/lang/1174719097/l50

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-15 0:46

I've been trying to translate a light novel when this sentence came up:

それが、生まれてはじめてかいた小説を、ほんの気の迷いで文芸雑誌の新人に応募したら、どういうわけだか史上最年少で大賞に輝いてしまった。

How does the "どういうわけだか" in this sentence work? How does the particle か work in this situation? Also, does で mean "among" even without superlatives with 中? Can using the -te form mean since? And how do the に particles work in this sentence?

"That was, a novel written for the first time since I was born, when I applied to the literature journal as a newcomer with doubt of the mere mind, "What is the reasoning?", and shined as the first place winner among the youngest in history."

This is my attempt at translating this, I think I've done many, many things wrong here.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-15 6:57

か marks "どういうわけだ" as a discursive insertion (or just an interjection). If you take this part out, the main sentence is still grammatical.

で marks the instrumental case, "with/at/by ...". "史上最年少で" means "at the youngest age in history".

Yes, the -te form can mean "since". I think it's a type of the so-called ablative cases.

The first に in "新人に" marks the dative case, "to ...". "新人" (newcomer) is one of the categories of the journal to which you can send your novel. The second one in "大賞に" is similar. It means that the sent and evaluated novel rose up to (and won) the grand prix.

"それが" in this context is more like "but", "for all that", rather than the literal "that is/was".

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-15 8:01

>>762
instrumental case
ablative case
dative case

They're not really cases, you know that?

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-15 11:08

>>762
Thanks for the help.
Haha, the stuff about the dative and ablative cases reminds me of Latin class.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-16 7:23

What does らい mean in わーってらい?
I know わーった means わかった and I figure the thing means something like わかっている but I'm curious about the らい part.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-16 7:37

>> 763
They're not really cases, you know that?

They are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dative_case

The dative was common among early Indo-European languages and has survived to the present in the Balto-Slavic branch and the Germanic branch, among others. It also exists in similar forms in several non–Indo-European languages, such as the Finno-Ugric family of languages and Japanese.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-16 7:51

>>765

らい, very informal and masculine, is used when the speaker contends against what has been said by another speaker, by affirming it. For example:

そんなことしちゃだめだよ。
You shouldn't have done that.

わかってらい。
I know that! (You don't have to tell me such an obvious fact!)

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-16 10:15

>>767
Oh really? There's no plain form of らい? I figured it was slang for something considering it doesn't come out in any of my dictionaries. Thanks for the help!

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-16 11:12

>>766

I wasn't being clear enough, so you misunderstood me. I meant that things like で, が, を, に are not cases (even if they carry the same meaning as a case would), but rather particles.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-16 19:57

>>769

Particles surely aren't cases by themselves. Particles mark what case the adjoining word takes up. In 彼に, for instance, に marks 彼 as a dative case. That's why the likes of に are called 格助詞/かくじょし ("case particle").

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-16 22:55

Anyone have any tips/stories about how they've learned kanji successfully? I'm pretty good with my grammar skills but for some reason kanji is just a pain in the ass for me. I mean, I know a pretty good amount, don't know an exact number but probably somewhere around 500, and most of that is just being able to recognize and know it from seeing it so much reading manga and etc. I'm wanting to at least learn all of the jouyou first but my brain just seems to be retarded when I'm trying to study kanji.

Any tips? Getting tired of knowing grammar really well but being fucked over by kanji.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-17 8:29

>>770

Particles surely aren't cases by themselves.

Referring to them as cases is then inappropriate. No?

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-17 9:13

>> 771

jMemorize:

http://jmemorize.org/download/ (app)

http://wiki.jmemorize.org/Lessons (Official Japanese basic Kanji set (1945 Cards))

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-17 9:42

>> 772

A case is the grammatical function of a noun/pronoun within a context such as a phrase or a clause. In Japanese, they are mostly marked with case particles like に, を etc. を itself is not a case, but the word to which it attaches has one.

私は魚を食べる。
watasi-wa sakana-o taberu

In thisi example, 私 is a subject and is so marked with は, and 魚 an object marked with を. In colloquial Japanese, however, some of these case particles can be elided and the cases don't fail nouns/pronouns:

私魚食べる。
watasi sakana taberu

This is because the cases are something that is primarily held not by the particles but by the nouns/pronouns themselves. The particles are just a collection of markers. And in this particle-less instance the cases are mostly marked with the word order.

Here's another famous example with no particle:

ぼくドラえもん。
boku doraemon

instead of

ぼくはドラえもんです。
boku-wa doraemon desu

(* ドラえもん is a famous anime character.)

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-17 18:17

は marks the topic, not the subject

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-18 12:15

>>775

It depends. は can mark the topic, the subject, or both. In 私は魚を食べる, 私 is both the topic and the subject. は exclusively marks the topic for a word only when が marks the subject (or the focus) for another word. Example:

象は鼻が長い。
zou-wa hana-ga nagai
elephant-TOPIC nose-SUBJECT nagai


は can also mark the objects of comparison:

リンゴは好きだが、梨は嫌いだ
ringo-wa suki-da ga, nasi-wa kirai-da
apple-COMPAR. like but, pear-COMPAR. dislike


or to specify/restrict the sense of a predicate:

おいしくはない
oisiku-wa-nai
delicious-SPECIF.-not


This is similar to:

それではない
sore-de-wa-nai
that-is-SPECIF.-not


And more than one は can appear in one sentence:

私はその話は詳しくは知らない
watasi-wa sono-hanasi-wa kuwasiku-wa siranai
i-TOPIC that-story-COMPAR./TOPIC familiar-SPECIF. know-not

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-21 5:52

Since the topic and subject are practically the same thing in English, and a Japanese sentence does not need a "subject" to be grammatical, saying that は can mark the subject as well is not wholly correct.

Also, the specification use is technically the same as the topic marking use.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-22 17:05

Sorry if this isnt totally relevant to the topic, but I dont want to start a new thread for it.

What are the better japanese learning software. Rosetta stone comes to mind but I wanted to know if there was any better software out there, or if Rosetta stone is any good in the first place

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-24 19:43

>>778
Rosetta Stone is shit. Learn through textbooks and dictionaries.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-24 19:47

>>779
really? why is it shit?

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-25 0:17

>>780
You don't learn any grammar.  So you can say exactly what they teach you, and nothing else.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-25 6:05

Can someone here tell me as to what this line means:

どれにもチェックを入れない

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-28 21:25

>>782
"Nobody can enter a check." or "Nobody can check in."

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-29 1:11

>>781
But surely you can guess.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 15:26

I hope this is the right place to ask..

I'm currently studying japanese and I learned hirgana, katakana, a few kanji and I know some basic grammar and words. I now want to put it into some practical use and read something. Do you guys have any tip on what I could read? Even children books could be fine as long as there isn't just one word and a picture. And yes, I'm prepared to look up a lot of words and probably tons of kanji.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 15:57

>>785
まだ早いです。Study more and then come back.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 15:59

>>786
I know it's probably too early for me. But I want to read some just for fun. It's not like I'm going to stop studying because I could actually read something for once.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 16:21

>>786
You're telling him to... not read?

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 16:54

>>785
I bought some 1st grade books. "Nihon no mukashibanashi" and "Nihon no otogibanashi." They are quite old, but easy to read, it's pure hiragana. I bought them used in some garage sale.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 17:17

>>789
Thanks! I'm having some trouble finding the books, but I will give it another go when I wake up tomorrow. (But if you know a site I would be really grateful, even e-books work). Isn't hard to look up words when there's no kanji?

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 19:36

>>788
I'm telling him to start reading after he has mastered a lot more kanji, vocabulary and grammar.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 20:13

>>791
Which is stupid. As soon as you learn all the hiragana and katakana you should start reading, even if you understand nothing.

When I was first learning and just knew all the kana and the kanji for 1-10, I started reading simple manga like Sailor Moon and etc. While I could understand barely anything and just make out some words here and there, it's still good to do. It helped out my speed of reading/recognizing the kana tremendously.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 20:29

>>792
Of course you should read stuff even if you have a limited grasp of grammar and vocabulary, but the OP said that

And yes, I'm prepared to look up a lot of words and probably tons of kanji.

which means that he's going to try to read more advanced text, which is not very advisable. He'll take too much in, and probably will just get discouraged if he does that.

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 20:29

>>793
but the OP said

I mean ">>785 said"...

Name: Anonymous 2009-08-30 21:23

>>791
If you know a better way to master these things than using them, I'd like to hear it.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-04 0:04

Can someone tell me how to refer to the same noun for two or more different functions?

With sentences like
私は田中のために田中と旅行した。
"I went on a trip with Tanaka for Tanaka's sake."
or
私は田中と田中に旅行してあげた。
"I went on a trip with Tanaka as a favor for him."

Can I use pronouns or some different sort of particle to condense that repeating "Tanaka" somehow? It sounds extremely off as it is; the repeating sounds repetitive.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-05 0:47

What's the difference between
パスワードとなります
and
パスワードになります
I know になります is normal, but となります comes up every now and  then

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-05 9:23

I'm learning numbers but with 7 and 4 which version do most people say?

I've learnt it as nana and yon.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-05 11:12

why are the japanese so racist?

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