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kanjii, where and how to learn it.

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-22 12:58

hey /lang/, I've mastered hirigana and katakana, and now it's time to move on, but where does one start when there are 50,000+ words to learn?  can anyone give me any tips/links?

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-22 13:19

buy a book of jouyou kanji and learn them, there are sometimes compound words given with each kanji. The best is to attend japanese classes mastering kanji doesn't mean you can actually speak or understand japanese. You have to learn grammar at the same time.

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-22 21:48

I suggest you learn japanese until you can have a basic conversation in Japanese, and know about grammer etc.

This will make learning kanji much easier and more useful.
The best learning tool ive used for learning kanji is CosComs product http://www.coscom.co.jp/

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-22 23:04

I would recommend Heisig's Remembering the Kanji books 1-3 if all you want to do is learn kanji. I'm on book 1 right now and I've learned about 1020 characters with a forgetting index of about 10% WITHOUT much reviewing (so actually about 918). I'm sure if you actually do a regular review of the kanji, you will forget far less than 10%.

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-23 0:53

1020? Jeez, been doing this for a while eh? I know about 200 and that was hard enough. I'm going through a class and the ようこそ book system, they use different combinations but same basic characters. I actually find the grammar rules harder to learn than the kanji, especially particles....

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-23 1:28

Heisig's Remembering the Kanji books 1-3

the success rate really depends on the people, I used his book when I was a beginner and I found it really weird and it confused me more than it helped. It's okay to learn the shape of the kanji but learning the readings is the most important thing and Heisig's book just doesn't help.
Lastly kanji are not so difficult, after you've learned around 600 or 700 things become much more easier. Grammar and vocabulary and the way to use it is in my opinion far more difficult because it has very little common points with our european languages.

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-23 2:16

>>6

I agree that the success rate depends on the person, but based on the fact that human memory works stronger by association combined with repetition, Heisig's books are almost essential if you want the associative aspect of learning kanji. before discovering his books, i didn't associate kanji's written form with a meaning, i just repeating the same strokes over and over in order to learn them as a meaning. what i found with heisig's method is that as long as I remember the primitive meanings of the parts, i can write a kanji perfectly without repeating it even 10 times on paper. to give you a true life story of how great heisig's method worked for me personally, when i studied abroad in Japan last spring I corrected the Japanese teacher once or twice because she wrote a kanji slightly incorrectly (mostly just forgetting a stroke or adding one where one shouldn't be) on the blackboard. people in my class must have hated me for that. but really, it's just natural to know how to write them once you know the stories associated with them.
and I also agree that kanji get easier as you learn more, and grammar and vocabulary are the biggest obstacles. you can use associative methods for learning vocabulary though. i recommend The Memory Book by Harry Lorayne and Jerry Lucas for learning how to do that. to give another real example from my life, when i first started learning Japanese, i used the associative methods in The Memory Book to learn 200 words a day (keep in mind that Japanese was my only class during the summer session i took it). The teacher called me a vocabulary maniac when I used the word "carpet" in a sentence.
unfortunately, there isn't a shortcut for grammar that i have found. grammar is basically learned through repetition. it's much easier if you live in Japan or have Japanese people you can talk to everyday. the more you use it, the better it gets, no matter what. you can't continue to speak in Japanese and get worse, even if you had that goal in mind in order to prove me wrong.
>>5
actually, i'm really lazy, so yeah, it's been about a year since i started learning. but the first week i used the book i was really gung-ho about it, so i learned about 100 kanji a day. then i got lazy and stopped, went to Japan for 4 months, came back and learned 300 more kanji in a week, and stopped again. if you are more motivated, you can learn all 2000 some in about 4 weeks. one guy who posted a book review for heisig's books on amazon learned all the meanings in 2 weeks, i think. it really is a matter of motivation, and nothing more, once you have the book.

Name: meh 2006-02-26 5:48

Also try the daily kanji thing from japanese.about.com. Maybe not when you're starting out but as you get better and better: http://japanese.about.com/blkodarchives.htm

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-26 23:44

try http://www.kanjistep.com t hey have 100 kanji in animated gif for you to learn

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-28 10:17

>>1
漢字の勉強をしたいのですか?
Would you learn kanjii?

Name: Anonymous 2006-02-28 10:20

Name: Anonymous 2006-03-01 18:50

day + book = Japan
I DON"T UNDERSTAND THIS FUCKING MOONLANGUAGE

Name: Anonymous 2006-03-01 19:47

About Japanese Language

http//web.archive.org/...

Name: Anonymous 2006-03-05 21:21

seriously, if you're still on the fence, get the Heisig books. i'm the guy who knew 1020 when i posted on feb. 23. now i know about 1426 (considering my forgetting index, i probably learned about 360 kanji since that post). sure, i'm on a studying binge right now that i'll probably come crashing down from sometime soon, but it isn't the book's fault when i do. but it IS the book's fault for being so easy to understand (albeit there are some errors and inconsistencies here and there) that one can learn in a few days what japanese kids take 4 years to learn.

Name: Anonymous 2006-03-06 23:18

>>12
It's not day + book.
Sun + origin = Japan.

Sometimes it's true that kanji have a whole set of different meanings, but I find they're mostly different in English, not Japanese. What I mean is they express a single idea in Japanese that doesn't quite translate into Latin-based languages. (a.k.a. "Semantic holism")

Luckily most kanji words are no more than 2-3 characters unless it's something inherently complex like "Tokyo building permit registry office reception area" (which would look like one word on a sign until you learned to 2-3 kanji rule)

...for words like "Japan," there's usually a weird but plausible reason why they're spelled the way they are, but you just have to look at it as how the word is spelled - Japanese do.

Personally I look at the meaning of each character, but I also do that to English, taking apart words like "etymology" into parts like "true, word, -field of study." I'm a programmer and language is my academic geekery - you don't have to do it, it just helps understanding of any language.

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-15 15:04 ID:RrTf0190

bump

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-15 16:54 ID:Bt5U/QBM

RIBEN RIBEN RIBEN RIBEN D:

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-15 19:27 ID:xQhLwCk3

>>17
Chinese aren't welcome here

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-15 19:53 ID:xQhLwCk3

Honestly though, how does anyone find Heisig good? It doesn't even teach you how to read it at least not in the first book, I don't see how that guy can claim he knows 1020++ if he can't even read the kanji not to mention doesn't know any compounds of them.

I did a quick search for a pdf
first half
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RK4/RK%201_sample.pdf
second half
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RK4/RK_1_marked_errata_cumulative.pdf

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-15 21:09 ID:qiZghsJL

I'm using the げんき series of books for learning japanese. Associated with each lesson are 15 or so kanji. The two books total up to 317 kanji. I have another book that is nothing but kanji - 2000 of them. It also mentions WHY the symbol is like it is (for example: It mentions that 本 is "line at the base of a tree trunk")

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-16 10:13 ID:mf3hpULe

>>19
Honestly, how can you miss the point so hard? Heisig teaches you how to write kanji, not read. Even the meanings you learn is often not very useful (when there are more than one). Seriously, just read the introduction in the one you linked.

The main idea put forth is kinda: the writing, pronunciations and meanings of a kanji are not at all related, so why try to learn them all at once?

In the "traditional" way, remembering how to write a kanji is fucking hard. I learned some 400 kanji in a year (with げんき), and couldn't write less than 10% of them after a few weeks of not studying.

With Heisig it's easy. Without Heisig I noticed that some kanji were orders of magnitude easier to learn. These were the kanji that contained parts I had previously seen in kanji I already knew. That's simply what Heisig does, only more focused, systematic and with memnonics ("stories").

>>20
I think げんき is nice, but it sucks for kanji.

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-16 13:52 ID:TRiwlv4H

who the fuck cares about being able to write kanji? Everyone types kanji with computers now-a-days, even Japanese, hell many Japanese are forgetting how to write some Japanese because of computers

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-16 15:38 ID:fCbBlw6M

>>22
オマエは馬鹿

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-16 17:35 ID:V5l1aQdQ

>>22
A valid point. Of course if you actually live in Japan, in many situations you really need to be able to write. But say your purpose isn't moving there, etc.

I guess the main benefit of writing is to really have looked at a kanji, to be able to tell it apart from similar looking ones. Really just deeper knowledge.

E.g. which is the correct one?

オマエは馬慶
オマエは馬鹿
オマエは鳥慶
オマエは鳥鹿

Of course the real main benefit might be that it isn't really very difficult to learn to write kanji. They are quite logical in this aspect. A good way to work some with them while highlighting their differences, before tackling the harder part of reading them.

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-16 18:06 ID:TRiwlv4H

>>24
Once you're fluent with the language, you recognize all the dumb radicals, and can tell. I myself jumped straight into just practice reading and have picked up hundreds of kanji that way.

Not to mention, none of those (but the second one) make up anything that would make sense if you read it as anything but 馬鹿, so it's not like you'd see that anyways, even though it wouldn't be a problem in the future when you're more advanced.

That was pretty simple too without even looking. 鹿 does not have 心 or 夂 at the bottom which plain sticks out and probably would make you think of 愛, then the other, 鳥 is pretty obvious, everyone should know the difference between those.

How kanji are put together is rather simple, when learning a new kanji, you should still dissect it in your mind, but that only takes like 2 seconds, and doesn't require you to write it a million times and not even learn how to say it.

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-16 19:33 ID:V5l1aQdQ

How kanji are put together is rather simple, when learning a new kanji, you should still dissect it in your mind, but that only takes like 2 seconds, and doesn't require you to write it a million times and not even learn how to say it.

Nice to hear you like Heisig. Why would you write a kanji a million (thousand, hundred..) times? That's stupid, unless you wanna train your handwriting. All you gotta do is dissect into parts and learn where they are placed. That's what Heisig is all about, only more systematic. (Or should I say efficient?)

It's really just a list of kanji with some mnemonics ordered so you learn the parts of a kanji before the kanji itself.

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-17 11:28 ID:zQKUiHs4

>>21
I'm not relying on the Genki book to teach me Kanji. I'll be learning most of it on my own with the other book mentioned.

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-17 11:57 ID:zQKUiHs4

>>27
Rather, I'm not relying on /just/ the Genki book. I'll learn what it teaches, but, I'll be studying past that for the other 2000 that people are expected to know.

Name: Anonymous 2007-08-17 14:22 ID:gT6Uji8o

>>28
That's the spirit! If you want to read Japanese fiction without any problems, you have to know at least 3000 characters, not the stereotypical 2000 (or 1945).

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-04 8:05

>>29
Oh my, that ID system brings back memories... I wish we still used it.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-05 2:21

You should start with the first grade kanjis, then second, then third, an so on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji#First_grade_.2880_kanji.29

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-05 14:05

In addition to the Kyouiku Kanji posted by the person above, I personally use http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/ for the definition and pronunciation of the Kanji rather than the wiki.  At least jisho puts up the sources used in defining and pronouncing of the Kanji.  I feel more reassured that it's more accurate.  You could search the Kanji via radicals or you could just copy and paste the kanji from the wiki into jisho's search function and find it that way as well.  I just find it to be a better exercise by trying to find kanji by the radicals.

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-05 19:36

馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿 馬鹿

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-07 9:55

Name: Anonymous 2011-04-07 18:25

Name: 威哥王 2011-05-09 21:50

Name: 媚薬蟻王 2011-05-09 21:51

Name: 测试 2011-05-10 9:02

<a href="www.google.com">Google</a>

难道这个不是超链接?

Don't change these.
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