MMORPGs, Flawed by Nature - "Grind"

It seems like everyone I know that plays MMOs just gets burned out by them, myself included.  Is the current model just inherently flawed?  What's the biggest problem?  What can be done to fix it?  Are minor tweaks all that are needed, or is a massive overhaul necessary?

Grind.

That and no real plot.

But mostly grind.

This is superior.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Toys/8480/garushoot.html

The grind is boring but only when your by yourself. the point of an mmo is to interact with other people. if you do that and make parties and grind for hours upon hours it feels like nothing. because the conversations are always fun with other geeks :P

Conversations? Over what? "lol ouch i died"?

You don't have conversations on an MMORPG, okay? That's like saying your shit is actually gold. When you play an MMORPG, where are your hands? One on the mouse, and the other on the keyboard. Yeah, man, you're really typing brilliant stuff with one hand. And if you're typing with both hands, why the fuck aren't you killing things instead, deadweight (or on IRC or IM for that matter)?

The only thing going for MMORPG is Teamspeak, and frankly, it's more fun to blow the hell out of people in an FPS anyway. No grind, ya know?

>>5
Ever hear of downtime?

What's the point of that? Use IRC if you're going to idle.

When your game's falling back on the fact that it happens to have a chat window (available everywhere ever) to make it fun, that's a bad sign.

1- MMORPGs probably don't have chat windows just because designers think they're boring.
2- I think the bad thing with mmorpgs is the whole kill->get exp->lvl thing.  It gets boring and repetitive even if instead of goblins, you start killing orcs, then zombies, blah blah blah.  What I like in an RPG is having cool powers, not killing orcs around the clock :/
Although earning things IS necessary xD

I think the one aspect that makes people burn out on what feels like a hollow grind is the way most MMORPGs handle plots or stories. You have the developers leading the players along some overarching plot with very little possible influence from the players. This is compounded by the dozens of parallel servers/worlds run by any one MMORPG versus for example, a single server/world for a MUD. Whose story is the real one? What if one server accomplishes one "big event" task but another doesn't?

Then you have the endgame, where inevitably top players complete a small group of "high end" quests or raids over and over and over again in order to gain some marginally better item, usually dropped at random. These big quests supposedly involve momentous events in the plot or arch villains, yet there are the players, bashing away at them as if they were gophers at a carnival game.

By design it's a static world. When the only thing to do is bash the same monsters in hope of collecting rarely dropped loot, a game is going to get old real fast.

What burnt out people want and need are the means to make their own plot in the world. To actually play a role.

MMORPG suck for RP. They're just fancy dungeon hacks, only without any real plot. Nor would most MMORPG players know prose if it gang-raped them repeatedly.

Because, you know, if there was a plot, you might be able to finish the game. They don't want you to do that though, no, no. Nobody has figured out a good way to have a truly persistent world in MMORPG either ("oh, look, Zoid the boss monster has respawned for the millionth time").

If you want RP, you play a MUSH. No? Oh, well, you don't want RP then, you just want a glitzy hack. Griiiiiiiiiiind...

Video Games, by nature are quite repetitive, if you boil down into it.

Aside from that, the real thing MMORPGs have going for them is human interaction, and I think devolpers really should capatlize that with interesting game mechanics.

Something that really comes to mind is 'A Tale in the Desert'.
I think EVE online received some good praise in that apsect also.

Something also interesting happening is in 'Light and Dark' which seems to have balls-y permadeath.

MMORPGS have been follwoing the same model for years now, and I think it's only recently that there are actually games coming out to experment and pioneer the genre.

omg!! you havent played an mmorpg if you havent play World Of Warcraft. All other mmorpgs SUCK ASS.its great for role playing and it has a HUGE community

-_-

>>13 is a prime example of why I don't play MMORPGs anymore.

If that's a parody, it's really, really good.

>>15
Agreed.

WoW a noobs MMORPG

Kingdom of Loathing, bitches.

>>18
same formula in comical dressing

It irritates me how players of every MMORPG will write pages upon pages deconstructing or reverse-engineering the combat/crafting systems in order to maximize efficiency and then say one is less of a grind than another.

Then you're left with the bulk of the population fixated on one "optimum" character class or combination of characters, and everyone who tries to be a bit creative or who doesn't fit the mold is labeled a noob or idiot.

UTRPG mod. nuff said. LOL

In this forum we speak English.

>>20
I think this is a very big problem with FFXI, why i dont play it anymore.

>>20
I think this is a very big problem with FFXI, why i dont play it anymore.

>>20

You know, your right, people are allways saying the people who want there character to be what THEY want it to be, are noobs, but like stated in another thread, the world is full of stupid people, there is nothing we can do to get around that. One must learn to work around stupid people and take advantage of them.

example, in world of warcraft, a bunch of people ((almost a full raid)) who ranged from level 6-17 rushed into an instance for lvl 30+ people, they made it slightly far ((about '30' feet into the instance)) and died out, while I followed behind them and giggled to myself, killing the few things that attacked me.


>>10

>>10

People should RP on online games, because yah, the storys are static and dull.

((was me on the above post, i acc. hit add reply))

DURRR I HATE GRIND BECAUSE IM STUPID

Isn't it more like we hate grind because we're intelligent?

Grind is brain-numbing. Why do you think bots can do it?

I think this is a very big problem with FFXI, why i dont play it anymore.

I haven't ever 'truly' played an MMO since Ultima, or, grinded, really, as the gameplay in these new ones are. I just download the 30 day trial and take in the sights as much as possible, save a few screens that bring good memories, and head off after seeing everything. Just...running around goofing off really. Generally, unless you're a completionist whore, you've seen everything it has to offer by day 18 or so.

Grind is the only really way to level up

find a monster and whack the fuckers for hours on end to get 1 new level with +3 strength added onto stats or w/e

every game does this even guild wars, and WOW, ffxi etc

I wish WOW was based on Warcraft II.  You'd be a grunt with no chance of levelling up.  The only upgrade you'd get is a +1 to attack, that's it.

There was this one game, i forgot what it was called. But it got rid of the grind you normally had. You could still level up but there was so much more to do. You could tan hides, mine ore, cook things, make weapons (easilly, not complicated like most games make it out to be). You could fish and level up fishing skills. It was 2D yet the graphics were still ok. I think MMORPG's need to worry about more than just leveling up. Maybe add hundreds upon hundreds of different armors and weapons so you could actually choose what you want to look like, not only whats the best (and have millions of clones). Maybe the ability to graph different weapons or have an easy way to create your own weapons. SOMETHING, there has to be more ideas than what mmo's are doing now.

If only there was an MMO with an easy way to get rid of WoW retards and PvP freaks...

>>33

I think you are thinking of Runescape.

Is classic superior to the 3D version?

Ultima online 1997.

Darkfall online 2007.

Explain Darkfall

>>37

what are you talking about?

The grind is pretty much why I gave up on Maple Story.  Having to kill 500,000 ribbon pigs so I can level up enough to use the next teir weapon got old real quick.

I'm a level 15 Archer I'm so leet this game is so much fun I'm playing it forever until I die!

the problem with grind is simply that if you make leveling to easy, people who play often reach max level way too fast, while the occasional players have a lot of fun leveling up. If you go to slow, you keep only the hardcore nerds (sorry guys). I say its all about balance. MMOG's should either have a quick lvl server and a slow lvl server.
The second problem is that plotwise all these games are shit. But adding a plot translates as less money because a plot means that at some point in time youd be done with the game, and thats it.
The solution:
while i dont know if its been done, maybe if an MMORPG was made with 2 servers (one for occasional players and one for the people who play everyday for hours on end). Then add a story, and a final boss, and everytime you beat the game with one character you are given cool bonuses when you start again with a new class (special gear, powers or whatever, somethin actually useful).  Maybe throw in a couple of dungeons that require you to go in with a team to encourage social activity.

Finally, have an semi-endless server (with a LVL limit) a la most MMORPGS where you could use characters with which youve cleared the game and play as long as you want.
Throw in occasional patches, quests, PVP and other assorted stuff... and youve got yourself a sweet MMORPG (and 3 servers per region shouldnt be that hard to pull off)

<Inst>
Guild Wars sounds interesting, but basically the holy grail of MMORPGs for me is a modified version of Shattered Galaxy www.sgalaxy.com where players can actually affect the history of the game.

Actually, no. Make that a competitive MMORPG with factions, and real money in it. Of course, it'll have to be a negative sum game, how else is the development company supposed to make money? But, you'll have clan v clan warfare that will actually output USD to victorious clan members.

<Inst>
Or, it could be a zero or positive sum game, and the management company can make its dough off administering the item trading system.

Let's see...

-A public marketplace, that facilitates item trade at a fee 75% of ebay's.

-A cash-in cash-out system, where clans can buy runestones with REAL money, and sell runestones for real money. Runestones are not available for grinding, therefore it is impossible for the management company to suffer negative cashflow due to Übergrinders buying and selling runestones. Runestones give clans the ability to manufacture more complex equipments, or improve their industrial efficiency. Runestones can be raided from enemy clans, but protections will be in place to protect weaker clans from constant attack, so most factions will try to attack factions of equal or greater strength. The ability to actually destroy a faction's defenses and take their runestones will be highly limited, so people won't complain about losing $150 items daily.

>>42

Why seperate servers?  Can there be different "systems" of levelling, some fast paced and some slow paced, that would coexist somehow?  Say magic, melee, and archery all have an A and B class like Maple Story, but one takes forever to level while another takes little time to level.  Something makes the longer levelling B class more worthwhile in the long run, such as more damamge or more variety in abilities, while the A class gets to run through the game but lacks great benefits later on, and may prefer switching to B class.  Then again, the nerf/gimp complaints would increase as A classes would be less effective end game.  But they would have gained more loot, skill points, or physical rewards in a shorter time.

>>44

Tell me, what would be "highly limited?" How do you prevent powerful players from raping weak and medium size players?   What kind of protection would exist?  What would prevent protected factions from grouping on powerful factions, even with frequent reduced damage or missing?

>>45

which is why i suggest 1 server per lvling speed.

>>46
to be honest, I have no idea.

Probably you could set up a MDP(mutual defense pact) system where weaker factions are obliged to help each other, for XP bonuses and others. We could design the game so that AOE effects are highly weakened against players, henceforth 3 level 60s would get mugged and killed by 30 level 10s. This will self limit, since a larger faction will have to split their earnings over more people, and thus lower the income per player. We could establish defender's bonus, where the defender starts with "natural defenses" and has the choice to build additional ramparts to protect them.  Probably, quite likely, by the end of the game it will end up being strong factions using a ton of siege equipment. There would also be the problem of night raids, where players on the other side of the globe would be sleeping, and when they wake up, their faction just lost 900USD in equipment.

Unfortunately, at some point in time there would be a good chance that all defense systems would fail, and one faction would emerge victorious, with maybe 15000USD in loot.

All RPGs are grind, they just sprinkle in some corny nonsensical dialogue to make it taste better than MMPORGs.

RPGs are for gamers with soft, pale frontal lobes. Go lift rocks.

What about taking the physics of CS-SOURCE, improve it even more, with neat explosions, building/object damage but in an MMPORPG world... A gigantic city being the world, or kinda like Mad Max kinda world, post-nuke, but with sick, gigantic cities á la GTA, driving physics thats FUN, ARCADE that is. Throw in a few helicopters. Imagine a raid into an enemy building, with a few choppers, dodging rocket launchers and heavymachinegun fire while jumpin off on the roof makin ya way down to try and steal construction plans on a EMP weapon that gives ya great advantage against the opposite faction.

The world would be divided in two factions you can join, or maybe just a fuckin post-nuke world with 1000 of factions, some larger that co-op with smaller, independent small factions, arenas for faction wars. Where you watch your game like HLTV.

And no lvl, like CS-SOURCE, lots of skill and a little luck make you the PRO!

Areas where no weapons are alowed, maybe whole cities where you cant kill people, where you start your game.

Imagine walking down the street, never knowing if theres an anoying sniper that got you head right in hes sight. Those areas with true pvp!

If this could work, I as an ordinary intelligent person without too much programming behind me(none?:D) would belive it too be a game I truly would think could generaty massive money and REAL fun and action and cooperation with people...

The downside: Could it generate a stupid/smart vicious murdering generation with fucked up values? Thou, maybe only allow smart ppl?

Fps/3rd person that is...................

>>50
great idea, but internet is filled with idiots.

Make it idiot-proof

>>53
but then itll be offline...

>>50
Uhh dude... Twilight War: After the Fall
http://www.twilightwar.com/

>>55


so it's an MMORPG with a fixed cammera...

>>56
I guess so?
It's an FPSMMORPG.. or as they've decided to dub it a XORPG

The letter X needs to be banned from the alphabet.

>>58
Agreed

http://mysterial.linuxgangster.org/UTRPG/
MMO with fun grinding? Hi.

Leveling up is alright in most single player games because you're doing it for a reason – to continue the story and get to the end of the game.
In an MMORPG, you're leveling up just for the sake of watching numbers increase. It's just not worth it. Some clever people realize this before they start playing, others need some time to figure it out. A few people keep playing and playing until they get to endgame, the part of the game that's supposed to be fun before starting the process over again, but these people will eventually die from dehydration, desperation and general dehumanization.
Some games also try to hide the fact that they're not more fun than sitting in an empty room and pressing buttons on a calculator, like WoW with its elaborate quests, but when you realize that *every goddamn player* is going through the same quests and nothing in the gameworld is changing, it just doesn't have the same effect.
MMORPGs simply suck and there's nothing more to it.

I think this is a very big problem with FFXI, why i dont play it anymore.

MMORPGs simply suck and there's nothing more to it.

Hooray! Say it like it is!

Online games in general simply suck and there's nothing more to it.

Fixed. If gamers wanted social interaction, they wouldn't be gamers in the first place.

mmorpgs are the nerd equivalent of a bunch of people hanging out in someone's room doing nothing or people standing around on the streets all day.

It should be illegal to make games without gameplay.

It's more like "You can pay me fifteen bucks a month and I'll let you spit shine my shoes every day and then suck me off."

>>66
Don't be offensive.

Just saying is all.

The fact that people use bots in MMORPGs doesn't surprise me. It goes to show how boring the genre is if people have to let a program play the game for them. I have friends that play MMORPGs and they watch television while playing the game. I could never see myself watching television while playing a fighting game, FPS or any other type of game.

WoW is not noob mmorpg, but it is noob friendly, because from lvl 1 on you do interesting quests (many of which are parts of long quest chains that include solo and elite parts) and visit very different zones. Sure.. some quests involve some grinding, but not too much.

Once you hit lvl 60 and get into a good guild.. start doing 40 man raids (while on teamspeak and everything) and geting epic sets.. or when you do PvP in a guild team (where people actually know what to do - unlike in pickup teams) it really becomes a pro mmorpg.

Oh.. and there is no TV watching in WoW.
No long health/mana recharge times like in L2.
The only time you have to wait is to get groups for instances.

>>70


QFT. I'd agree with this, WoW is superior. I'm enjoying it at least :).

I think the only way to eliminate grinding is to eliminate levels. However, once the concept of leveling is gone you are really only left with two options for actual gameplay, exploration and PvP. I think the best way to acomplish this would be in something akin to  "Planetside" but on a more massive scale.

Just for an example of something I would like to see, a World War 3/Post Apocolypse type game where you play a regular soldier on either side of the conflict with the goal being to conquer the planet. Vehicles would be available, but they don't spawn at the same rate as they do in say "Battlefield 2" making then a rare sight on the battlefield. The only real problem I can see with this sort of game model is how players would be able to find enemies? Perhaps the world could also be populated by "bots"? However this concept will most likely never come to pass because it is untested and still has a great many flaws. It appears we will be experiencing the grind for many years to come.

I compare mmorpgs to anime based off shounen manga: horribly dragged out with waaaay too much filler.  And crappy animation.  Designed to waste your time.

not to sound like a blind fanboy, because i'm not, but WoW has actually addressed many of the issues and flaws, and executed the alternatives quite well.

1) grind - it is possible to do quests for exp/items in WoW from lvl 1~60 without actually killing a single non-quest required monster. of course, most the quest involve killing, but this gives a valid motive and story behind the otherwise mindless slaughtering of the next tier monster.
also, many quests are done in such a way that it does not involve point and clicking everything you see until they're dead. I remember a lot of quests where there are item retrivals, or killing specific npcs both which were full of guards, however as a rogue, i snuck and captured/killed the target and ran, and as a hunter, i used my pet to distract the guards and accomplish my objectives, both involving alternate choices to same situations. I think it's a great idea to let players have their own choices of how to handle a situation differently, and still succeed.

2) repetition - probably the hardest flaw to solve in mmorpg. because the company wants a player to stay for months, years if possible, the game is designed to be at a slow pace of development. realize, most console/pc games last 50 hours average, and that's stretching it. of course it's easy to keep a player interested for that long. but for mmorpg, much much harder. PVP encourages replay value, as every different player offers a different challenge, thus many mmorpgs use this as somewhat of a seperate meta-game device to keep players interested, while they're busy doing more tiresome boring tasks such as grinding for levels. Items also play a big part in the interest category, as it gives players an incentive to strife for. I think in a lot of cases MMO's can be summoned up to be a large bragging game, where simply having a rare or cool looking weapon/equipment justifies the hours you've spent working to get it. i believe WoW really polished a lot of these areas (talent trees, pvp raids, set items)

3) mmorpg world - being restricted to its own category, the term is almost synonomous with weapons, level ups, quests, and monsters. assuming each mmorpg has it's own world, and its own theme, it's not surprising that one can sit in such a static world for so long without being tired of seeing the same hometown castle for so long or that same group of monsters that always spawns in that specific location. exploration and diverse topological features really adds to the interest, and i really commend the WoW designers for giving the players the freedom to explore with the minimal amount of drawbacks (exp/item loss upon death really ruins the exploration part in many other mmorpg) also, the addition of many climbable terrians really makes my day, i personally found trying to climb onto top of houses, mountains, and other places where the obvious road does not direct you, is a fun reward for treading a new path. one time, i swam around the entire continent, and found many awesome monsters, bosses, explorable areas where no one seems to be at, very exciting experience.

With all the popularity/bashing for WoW, it's really a shame many people will not try it because of hype/anti-hype.

There are some issues coherent within the genre that cannot be resolved so easily because it's what makes the genre what it is, but maybe with enough intelligent discussion and proposing of new ideas that we can resolve the flaws, or maybe even create a new and more exciting genre of gameplay, rather than blindly bashing of so-and-so games that really, does absolutely nothing but circulate hate amongst eachother.

1)
Ok, so at least there are options in achieving goals.

2)
However, even in WoW the bulk of endgame or top tier gameplay consists of grinding a set of 5-10 main quests in hopes of certain rare drop items in order to complete a set of max stat equipment. PVP can certainly add to the experience, if there's something to fight over. Can Horde/Alliance players take over each other's territorries? Lay siege to enemy cities(As in blockade travel in and out)? Fortify or add to their own properties?

3)
So there is a lot of less used content lying around. After you discover these forgotten areas and finish them, what happens if you ever return? Those monsters and explorable areas are going to be standing there all over again as if you had never been there in the first place.

I haven't seen all that much specific bashing of WoW in this thread at least. Any game as popular as it will attract crowds of fanboys and detractors. Many people will not try it because it's essentially the same MMORPG grind since Everquest, albeit with some streamlining and refinements. (I leave UO out because it was a significantly different experience with its skill based system and open pvp)

>There are some issues coherent
You mean inherent.

i've only played WoW for 2 months, so you must forgive me if i dont talk from a maxed out character's perspective. i was around lvl 40 when i quit, too addicting for my health. and ive played many mmorpgs before WoW that not one has captured my attention that long. (eq, ffxi, ro, gw.. etc etc)

2) yes, you can form large groups of people to take over towns, although you will only last as long as your group is not defeated/disbanded, it all really depends how long you wanna harrass the other guys' territory, before they send out large groups of their own to retake it. not sure if this has any point besides bragging rights, there might be some specific town npcs that have nice loot that people would consider pillaging an enemy town for I personally have not joined a siege of this type, but i have defended many towns from a horde/alliance attacks before, it's really fun when there's like 40 elfs all trying to be stealthy, hiding, and ready ambush you right outside your own outpost.
also, there are battlegrounds in WoW, i havent experienced it myself because i left before it was implemented, but supposibly you can permanently take over key areas, castles, strongholds or whatnot, many of those things you listed. you can also raise rank for yourself, your squadron, army. not really sure of the specifics, but i've heard from a friend who still plays, it has a lot of objectives to shoot for rather than mindless killing, really emphasizes strategy and teamwork.

3) of my 2 months playing, i have not ran out of things to explore, or new paths to thread, i am especially fond of trying to sneak into enemy territory and seeing how far i can get without being caught, from both side's perspective (i play both horde and alliance on different servers). or simply climbing on top of buildings and watching people duel for fun on the streets below. i know what you're saying, that new discoverys are only fresh once you find them once, but of my 2 months playing, i've been pretty satisfied. i guess this is one of those really hard to fix flaws, unless terrains change constantly to offer new experiences, the only way i see how this is possible is player created content, but that leads to many other issues that are very hard to control and keep consistant.

there's a mmo (not rpg) called 2nd Life, everything in the game is user created content, it has a modelling program, you can upload textures, animations, audio, and free scripting. it takes awhile to learn, but infinite possibilities have arising within that game. people who have build entire characters from scratch, working fictional vehicles, weaponry from swords to satellite laser beams, mind control devices, landscapes, traps, harems, entire towns and worlds within worlds. there are truely no limits on that game but the imagination of the users. (and maybe the time it takes for you to learn those creation tools and skills). pretty crazy.
some things i've seen in it of the 1 day i've tried it out:
some guy summoned one of those snow walking giant robot things from star wars.
saw some furrys running around with swords the size of a 1 story building.
saw some town district selling sex animations and wedding dress models/textures.
best thing i saw was probably a couch, a sofa, and a remote control. when i clicked the remote, a interface popped up, and asked me what i wanted to watch. thinking it was a joke, i scrolled through the movies it listed and picked "Be Cool". of course, what i didnt expect was the actual movie being played, from start to end, on the crappily modelled tv screen, within the actual game. it was indeed a time paradox. /nods

2) So neither side can ever take control of the whole game world, or at least take a significant amount of territory, and shift the borders? Say a scenario like each side gradually taking territory from each other in different parts of the world, eventually wheeling around each other until each essentially controls each other's old territory.

>best thing i saw was probably a couch, a sofa, and a remote control. when i clicked the remote, a interface popped up, and asked me what i wanted to watch. thinking it was a joke, i scrolled through the movies it listed and picked "Be Cool". of course, what i didnt expect was the actual movie being played, from start to end, on the crappily modelled tv screen, within the actual game. it was indeed a time paradox.

That's some heavy shit. No load times or buffering?

2) technically speaking, that is possible, provided you have enough manpower to spread around several large enemy fraction cities. but those areas wont change, since npcs/key-figures/quest-givers dont travel around with you, ie: you cant buy/sell weapons from the npcs there, or take quests from npcs from the opposing fraction, though the npcs will probably try to attack any intruders anyways, so i dont think that's even an option.
this usually isnt the problem though, since most servers are pretty balanced (50/50 horde/alliance) ratios. and if any major city is attacked and taken over by the opposing force, it wont be long before the home turf dudes starts rallying up a group of a similar size and power to push back the invaders.
there are, however a couple major neutral towns on the map, where whoever has the power, controls the area. that happened to one of the servers i was playing on, one of the major neutral town was captured by the horde, and because there was many powerlevelers on the horde side, they permanently took over that town for about a good week or 2 before the alliance caught up in levels. during that period, alliance couldn't get equipment, quests, or skills from that area. cept for some lucky rogues who managed to sneak into town without getting caught and killed on sight.
i guess the answer is: you can take over enemy territory if you wanted, but it really doesnt benefit the conquerers much, and the opposing force will always need to come back there for items/equipment/quests, so more likely than not, you wont be able to hold a town hostage for long.

2nd Life> it's been awhile so i dont remember if there was buffering, but i remembered it played relatively fast after i hit play and it was smooth from there out. the only problem i found with the game was that due to the obscene amount of user created content, there's a high amount of polycount in irregular densities spread around the world, so i lags like shit if you dont tune down the clipping range, or have an awesome computer that can handle it. also, not everyone is an artist, so there were a lot of crap architecture and "debris" lying around in certain parts of the world too. i would try it out again, but i need to upgrade my comp first. :(

2013 here, hate to see your hopes and dreams for the MMORPG genre crushed 2005. The genre has stagnated and it's as shitty as ever.

>>79
MARTY IS THAT YOU?

>>5

Of course you'd say FPS are more fun. All you want is a quick thrill, and team speak works just fine for conversation you dumb fuck.