Is the universe deterministic?

discuss

yes. everything is a result of the creation of the universe.

>>2
Getting real deep there, Cletus.

>>3
I like apple juce

I would say yes, but I know someone will play the quantum theory card at some point so I'll counter it here: level 3 multiverse.

Quantum theory says every thing is probabilistic. Something like, if you punch a wall enough time (say 10^10^10^10) maybe one time your hand will go through the wall...or something.

>>5
I don't get it. How does that make the universe deterministic?

>>6
quantum theory does not say anything is probabilistic.

quantum theory is a probabilistic model.

you faggots really need to start understanding that science is a model used for prediction, not explanations of how the world actually works.

>>6, 7
Deterministic non-local quantum hidden variables theory.

My gander is yes.

When you toss a die, the outcome is of course not random. The outcome results from factors such as friction when it hits the ground, wind factor, how it slipped out of your hand, the angle of which it is released from your hand, the angle of which it hits the surface, et cetera, and all of these things are determined by other forces, as these forces determined the outcome of the die.

Of course quantum theory and its uncertainty principle say that at a macroscopic scale, things might actually be randomized, but there's a bit of a Schroedinger's cat preventing us from seeing for sure whether the chaos is genuinely random. For all we know at this point, the "chaos" of probabilisticness has underlying patterns that determine the probability like anything else.

Philosophically though, it's hard for me to contemplate a system in which there is genuine chaos, without the rest of the system tumbling down.

>>8
i'm not even referring to hidden variable theory.  i'm pointing out that just because we have a model that seems to produce useful predictions, that doesn't necessarily mean we have any explanation of the actual functioning of the things involved.

>>10
Sry for the misinterpretation.  I didn't say that you were referring to a hidden variable theory; I was countering both of your statements about probability with another possible model that isn't random.

eg
"Quantum theory says every thing is probabilistic"
"quantum theory is a probabilistic model."

It is true that we still have no idea how the world works, though our models are getting better.  I hope we find out eventually.

I understand that QM *models* the world as non-deterministic, and that that doesn't necessarily mean the world is non-deterministic, but from what I've read (particularly stuff by Carlo Rovelli) I don't think determinism can really return to physics fully, (in the same way that absolute space and time aren't going to either) i.e. I think the universe really is non-deterministic, and that a mechanism like decoherence is what makes the world seem deterministic to us. I can't give much detail as I've been on 4chan too long and have forgotten too much physics, read up on Relational Quantum Mechanics for more detail.

This reminds me of what my Psychology professor said in the lecture. Something like: "It used to be thought that Psychology would depend on Biology. That is, if you want to know more and more about Psychology you would look to Biology for information. And Biology would depend on Chemistry which would depend on Physics. But because of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, that is not true anymore because Physics can't deterministically predict anything. So Psychology doesn't have to depend on Biology anymore, lol." I just about orzed right there.

>>13
and several hushed "oh for fuck sakes" were heard in the audience

>>13
Prof phails at uncertainty principle.