E85

Why are so many delusional environmentalists investing tremendous amounts of money in the development of ethanol-based bio-fuels when refining the corn necessary to make it takes almost the same amount of energy that the weak fuel can produce? Is there any real redeeming quality about this new overhyped "wonder fuel"?

Good question.

I thought corn-based ethanol was only supported by idiots and corn farmer lobbyists. Like high fructose corn syrup.

Of course, a lot of environmentalists are idiots, so...

its not about how much energy we save while refining E85, its about how much we can lower CO2 emissions, seeing as your a fucking moron, i'll explain to you that Ethanol releases MUCH less CO2 then normal gasoline, gb2grade11.

>>4
It produces less greenhouse gases, but it also gets worse mileage. Unfortunately the latter frequently outweighs the former.

We are going to need something to fuel our cars when gas begins to run low/gets very expensive.

>>6
Good thing that's not in my lifetime.

>>4
CO2 doesn't cause global warming, politicians do.

>>4
100 gallons of ethanol releases more CO2 than 10 grams of gasoline gj.  CO2 is also released to produce the energy to refine E85.  The question we're concerned about is whether the net effect is helpful or not (ie >>5's final statement).

>>8
re think what you just raid

>>1

The two main benifits are fairly simple, as I see it.

First, one can retrofit a car to run biodiesel, while switching to something else would basicly require a new car to use.  The thing is that the more cost that's associated with switching to a new fuel, the harder it's going to be to get the average middle/lower class people to buy into that fuel.  Most cars on the road are *used* cars, and in fact the vast majority of people buy used cars rather than new ones.  For the rich folks out there, maybe other fuels look pretty good, but remember if people can't afford to make the switch, they won't.

Secondly, Biodiesel is renewable.  That's probably reasonably true for other types of alternate fuels.  But if your main goal is to get people off the jihadi oil tit, being able to grow an automotive fuel is important.  People in the USA just don't seem to go for public transport the way Europe does, so you need to fuel all of the trucks diven on US roads.  I'd rather the money go to corn farmers in Kansas, Missouri or Illinois rather than the middle east.

>>10
I'd rather we drop the sugar tariffs and stop shoehorning corn in to ridiculous uses.

its carbon neutral.

Just burn corn like you would burn coal. Any carbon emitted will be absorbed by next year's crop.

>>13 has a very good idea.  The more energy spent on processing and refining fuel, the further it fails to meet the break-even point.

But the best agricultural-related energy idea of all is taking the anhydrous high-pressure pure ammonia that's normally used to create high-nitrogen fertilizer additives, and burning it in air instead.  This not only generates energy, it also gives you nitrogen pentoxide and fuming red nitric acid, which are very valuable industrial commodities.

Ethanol is made from corn, fail, and AIDS.  If it didn't FUCKING SUCK it wouldn't need laws or subsidies.  Same for biodiesel.

Humans are only responsible for 2% of the CO2 on earth... why would we even want to try to lower it? Why don't we bitch about humidity, the ocean's by products, and the position of the sun relative to the earth, which has much more to do with it then CO2 humans produce.

>>15
why don't you read up on the topic then

>>14
Bamboo is probably a better choice since it grows much faster.

Where do you get the ammonia, pray tell?  Oh that's right, it takes a crapload of energy to produce (or to process and refine from animal excretory waste).

>>15
Because then Al Gore can't make money trading carbon credits, durrr

>>17
Ammonia's an industrial commodity.

Surely it's less wasteful to burn it for energy than to convert it to fertilizer, grow corn, ferment the corn, and distill it for ethanol--using XBOX HUEG amounts of fuel and energy every step of the way--and THEN burn it for energy, amirite?

p.s.  SCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEENNNNNCEEEE

>>19
Good point.  You might be right, but it depends on how much fertilizer is needed to grow corn.

>>20
Not just how much fertilizer.  Also how much diesel the tractors and other farm equipment are going to need, unless the plan is to use prisoners for carbon-neutral slave labor to plow and harvest.

>>11

I can understand the desire to cut the sugar tarrif, but I don't think corn as a fuel is rediculous.  Maybe some other crop could work better, but corn does work.

As I mentioned, the main attraction (for me anyway) is that it has a low cost of entry.  The conversion of a current car to a biodiesel car cost ~$100 and labor.  A *new* car using fuel cells or electric costs several thousand.  People on a fixed income will never buy those cars because it would cost half of what they make in a year, and they kinda need that money to feed their kids.

Pie in the sky is nice, but nobody who makes $30K a year is going to be able to drop $20K on a brand new car.  This is something that has to be taken into account if you want to radically change the way we drive. 

>>22
The problem with biodiesel is the price of the fuel itself.  It is mostly made from used deep fryer grease, which is a valuable industrial commodity in the soap and detergent industry.  There's already a market for it and it's too valuable to burn in cars and trucks.

Did anyone notice how the price of ethanol on the global market skyrocketed when the US began putting more of it in gasoline?  Did anyone else notice how the market prices of the things that are used to make ethanol, like corn, and of other products produced with corn, such as beef, likewise rose significantly?  It's supply and demand.

You watch and see with biodiesel.  It's always going to cost much more than petroleum diesel, and if too many people get on the bandwagon, or, god help us, the government mandates it, wait and see what happens to the price of things like soap and shampoo.

Actually I think the most scientific of approaching the biodiesel is just letting evolution run it's fucking course. It worked for coal, gasoline, and nuclear fission, it'll work for us. If you find somefuel naturally attractive, aborb information from both your super-ego (Conscience) and id (sex drive and other things) and then let your ego (sense of self) decide how to balance between those two inputs and more importantly your own reality. Then react accordingly, and remember, if you feel bad aboot something, but you want to do it, the three aspects of your personality are clashing and you need to think long and hard and talk to some people you know and develop a set of moral values, that way next time you don't have to think so hard cause you have a set of rules. Whoever succeeds deserves to, whoever doesn't, doesn't. And don't forget how insignificant you really are when it comes to the future of humanity. But also keep in mind that a blizzard is nothing without snowflakes (Nothing more than a cold wind anyway.).
     So if you're concerned aboot getting fuel, you should be, because that's just how your genetics have programmed your beginnings, and how your surroundings, which are affected by social evolution, have affected your growth. And if the car dies off, whoopdeedoo, we'll just have to try harder with the next sentient species that so inevitably has to arise somewhere in the Universe.
     Ow my digression, it hurts my tired mind. Oh yeah, just in case you couldn't catch the moral behind that, it was a scientific way of saying be yourself, not only for the good of yourself, but for the good of your species. And fuck electric cars with batteries, you make your own muscle contraction constantly, and if someone uses them it means that you are doing the opposite of atrophying  and would have a wide base of transportation for your life. So you're promoting coal power when you drive that stuff. Drive normal cars with gasoline, or better yet, diesel.
     And yes I am a car virgin, because I would not want my son driveing a concept car that is not nearly ready enough for these kind of gasses while she's still getting used to her drive system. So I am avoiding hypocrasy by waiting until I can view myself as my own father and approve. Whether or not I could have had biodiesel by now had I been trying to like so many other id-driven bio monkeys my age, is a total mystery. But not really, because I am who I am and it's not like that's going to change, the purpose of the last few points was to say that I'm not the kind of guy that says: "I could've had biodiesel if I wanted to PPPBbbbPPTTbt"

I haven't slept in 3 days, and I'm going to. Right. Now. Goodnight.

>>24
Despite three days of sleep deprivation, I think you are correct.

The Stone Age did not end because the world ran out of stone.  Human beings are clever, we'll find better ways.  Just you wait and see.

I am not convinced that ethanol or biodiesel are those better ways, here and now.  But with genetically engineered plants, who can say what'll be possible in ten years?

The word pirahna, is all I can think of that rhymes with marijuana

Marijuana MUST be legalized.