Everything Is References

Is there a language in which variables, function arguments, etc, are always references by default?

For example:

int x = 5;
int y = x;
y++;  // x and y are both 6

If you really did want a copy of something, you'd have to use a keyword:

int x = 5;
int y = copy(x);

And pass-by-value would also have to be done explicitly:

void func(int z)
{
   int w = copy(z); // now w is effectively "local"
}

It would force programmers to at least be aware of the fact that they're making a copy.

>>80
Any modern OS provides decoding MP3s as a system service
Yes. Yes it does.

>>80
what percentage of Winamp code do you think is specifically for MP3 decoding? 2%? 1%?

It's 100% of the code that I actually care about, and 100% of the reason I download and install Winamp, and 100% of the reason that Winamp was created.

I totally get you now...  You're just into writing fluff.  I am the guy that writes that 1% that you apparently don't care about -- the code that actually does work, while you slap together ENTERPRISE CLASS XML SKINNABLE INTERFACES.  Here's the thing:  People don't want that shit.  It's just the bloat that people are willing to put up with because they want the actual application hidden underneath all those layers of visual masturbation.

Your numbers are completely skewed, but you're right, that worthless shit doesn't need to be written in C.  In fact, it doesn't need to be written at all.

>>82
Sadly, you're wrong in that those who want Winamp mostly want it for the other 99%.

It's funny how there are reasonable arguments for both sides, but neither of the representatives of those sides in this thread is capable of producing any of them.

>>83
They think that they want it, but it's only entertaining for the first five minutes that you use the app.  Eventually, you're going to want to just listen to MP3s.  And you're going to want your IDE to just compile programs, quickly.  And you're going to want your browser to just load web pages, quickly.  So you turn off "visual styles" and "file association monitoring agents" and you start removing those 60 icons from your system tray because you figure out that you actually want to use your own CPU cycles.

>>82
Bullshit. If you don't care about extra functionality, why don't you just play your MP3s from the command-line? If you don't care what it looks like, why don't you just use Media Player Classic?

I'll tell you why, it's because you do want that shit. Damn right you want it. You're lying to yourself and to the rest of us to pretend like your enterprise coding job somehow differentiates you from the rest of us. Well I've got news for you: it doesn't.

>>85
And you're going to want your IDE to just compile programs, quickly.
Again, total fucking bullshit. You can't possibly be so completely unaware of everything your IDE does. Look at how many goddamn buttons are on the IDE interface. How can you be so clueless?

>>85
So you turn off "visual styles"
You honestly think this slows your computer down?

>>86
why don't you just play your MP3s from the command-line?
I do, effectively.  I just double-click them, which launches Winamp with the filename as a command-line parameter.

If you don't care what it looks like, why don't you just use Media Player Classic?
Not a bad idea I guess...  That's what I use for video, I guess I could just as easily use it for MP3, also, and have one less app installed.  Thanks.

I'll tell you why, it's because you do want that shit.
The fuck I do.

pretend like your enterprise coding job somehow differentiates you from the rest of us.
Not at all...  I'm far more like the average programmer than the morons who need to change the color of their buttons or need an animated GIF as their desktop wallpaper.  They are called script kiddies.

>>89,et al.
Would you guys terribly mind taking this somewhere else, like /g/ or /tech/ perhaps?

>>90
Fuck off.  /prog/ is for interesting discussions, not torrential shitspam.

>>90
This is way more interesting than the shitposts. At least all this is vaguely programming related. Cinnamon rolls? Really? Grow up.

>>92
It's tedious bullshit about what you like about application X, and no longer has anything to do with programming. If you find it interesting there are other boards more appropriate to its discussion. The only difference between what's been recently going on in this and shitposting is that you dorks actually seem to care about the trivial subjective garbage you're arguing. Seriously, some boards are down with that and would welcome you.

>>91
Yeah. That's what I said.

>>93
Which would you prefer: actual discussion or mindless garbage?

>>93
I would 100% prefer Languages as Touhou Characters, fucking Cinnamon Rolls and How To Rape The World to be our only topics.

Ass.

>>94
I would prefer programming discussion. If it's not that, it might as well go.

BTW, it's mildly hilarious that you try to pass off this winamp ``discussion'' as anything but mindless. It's completely inane and entirely predictable. It's not a discussion, it's mechanical degenerative bickering about nothing of any relevance.

I'd just like to point out that the issue of performance should not be reduced to a simple dichotomy of whether it ``matters'' or not. The question we need to ask is: exactly how critical is performance for this particular task, and to what extent is it worth the potential tradeoffs? (in code clarity, maintainability, correctness, speed of development, et cetera)

(I apologize if someone else already expressed similar sentiments. I didn't feel like reading all of the angry quarrel above.)

>>96
This is the closest you're getting. If you don't like it, you can't change it by simply showcasing your smug, baseless sense of superiority (instead of trying to start actual programming discussion) and might as well leave.

If I wanted to talk about programming, I'd call a meeting.

This flood of imageboard faggots has got to stop.

>>99
I'll admit that I'm from the imageboards, but I'm curious -- what sort of content do you want to see on this board, if it isn't "talk about programming?"

JACKSON FIVE GETs?  They seem to be popular.  Nike spam?  There appear to be a couple of running jokes about SICP and Lisp, but the board would be pretty sparse if discussion was limited only to those.

_{Also, just to affirm that I'm from the imageboards, check these doubles}

>>100
It's quite obvious that you are from the imageboards; you saw a bunch of idiots posting and generalised to "hey this must be what the board is about".

>>101
So what is it about, then, if not "talk about programming?"  Come at me, bro.

>>102
It is about programming, it is not about mindless winamp bullshit. It is also not about bumping threads that have long since past their sell by date in a vague attempt to feel morally superior to the shitposters.

>>102
If you want to talk about programming, call a meeting. Don't have a job? Get a programming job, then call a meeting.

Don't bring your reddit/stackoverflow shit here.

>>99 - "Stop talking about programming"
>>100 - "What is /prog/ about then?"
>>101 - "You don't know what it's about."
>>102 - "Is it about programming?"
>>103 - "It is about programming."
>>104 - "It is not about programming."

I don't think /prog/ needs to worry too much about outsiders shitting up the place.

>>105,99-104
The above is for my own convenience. Fuck activating multiple links like that.

>>105
Many dudes in this thread are pretty new. Sentence composition and lack of awareness of certain norms gives them away. I think it's safe to call them outsiders.

Regardless, yes, insiders do shit up the place as well. They just do it differently. And they don't troll each other as easily--->minimal snowball effect.

>>105
What makes you think that is not an outsider?

>>105
Anyway, the thing is, >>99,104 is full of shit. The kind of "talk about programming"ing that goes on in meetings isn't ever the discussion of programming techniques, paradigms, language/tool discussion or anything else like that. It's mind-numbing "THESE ARE OUR GOALS" "WHAT TURKEY STRATEGIES SHOULD WE COME UP WITH" "I HAVE ANOTHER BRILLIANT FEATURE IDEA YOU SHOULD INCORPORATE INTO OUR FLAGSHIP PROGRAM" that nobody wants to discuss out of the office (i.e. here).
And reddit and stackoverflow aren't all that dissimilar to /prog/, bar content (inane article linkage, stupid questions with rated answers as opposed to... Well, you know what it's like here) and presentation (onymity, karma).
Ultimately all three discuss programming, whether you like it or not.

>>100,102,109
Programming is all about abstract bullshite that you will never fucking comprehend.

If you want to talk about something between lambda-the-ultimate and stackoverflow, you'd see that the discussion carries on relatively normally.

>>110
Oh, I see, you're a Lisper. Never mind then.

Can we all stop talking about talking about programming and just talk about programming instead?

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