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The uncomfortable truth about academia

Name: Connoisseur 2010-07-16 15:30

Got sent this in an e-mail, thought you guys might like it. From some objectivist's blog, I think.

At work today I discussed a new rule of thumb with the hiring manager, in an effort to stave off more fuckups like the guy we just had to fire. I provided her with a list of theory buzzwords and academic programming languages. If an applicant lists any of these on his resume, from now on she will not call him in for an interview. If he volunteers a mention of them during an interview, she will end it immediately.

For the naive among you: An academic programming language is by definition a language in which you cannot do real work. These languages are easy to identify because academics write papers about them. I think most people are unaware of the distinction, which is confusing because just four or five years ago it was glaringly obvious and nobody would take such a language seriously or ever try to use it to write an actual program. If some retard wanted to spend the rest of his life trying to write a working text editor in LISP, that was his business and all the people with homes and jobs could safely ignore him. Long story short? This is no longer true. Now the drooling lab rats have escaped from the lab. Now they're on my front lawn demanding to replace my Porsche with a cardboard box attached to a skateboard with organic barbed wire. Now they are literally in my actual business, wasting my time as well as theirs.

When a viral infection escapes from a lab, it's a disaster, a plague. It's the fucking armageddon. I think we should treat the theories of academia exactly the same way. God knows we've seen this happen in other fields-just look at the Gulf of Mexico. But at least that's a poison we can see with our eyes. Usually when academics poison industry with their impossible ideas, it goes completely unnoticed, and the world treats disasters as mysterious.

My industry is one of these. American programmers don't understand why nobody ever hires them. They complain about this on web pages like Reddit and Y Combinator, where they also discuss functional programming, monads, and web frameworks written in Ruby and Python. And nothing about this strikes them as ironic or hypocritical.

The good news (for me) is that programmers from other countries are actually serious about their work. All the Chinese and Indians we interview know that in the real world, we are worried about real computers that exist, with real hardware and real performance limitations.

Meanwhile, academic heavyweights like Mr. Don Stewart brag about the great things that they can do in Haskell, like write a display server called X Monad. Actually it's not a display server, it's a window decorator. Actually it's not written in Haskell, it's written in C, with a thousand lines of convoluted Haskell necessary to use the foreign function interface and call the C code that it's written in. Actually everything Mr. Stewart writes is like this. "Superior performance, safety, and ease of use?" So says Mr. Stewart, in the Haskell book that he's selling to all the people who think Haskell sounds like a good idea. Why yes, he's making money on this deal. Did he forget to mention that?

Overselling one's snake oil is hardly unique to Mr. Stewart. It's like the foundation of academia as a concept. The university itself is snake oil, and the whole community is a giant pyramid scheme for keeping afloat those who buy into it. I do mean "buy." The veil of learning and education is a front for the conspiracy of industrial sabotage, the vast plot to bring down all of society in order to "prove" that the bearded professors in their poorly ventilated hidey-holes were Right All Along. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy, by the way-a common ailment of mongoloids and schizophrenics.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 15:37

Anyone who types this much actually believes what they're saying. That is the truly sad part.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 15:44

1/10

People use what you call 'academic languages' to do real world work. For some of them, it even takes less time and effort while still achieving good performance. I won't say anything about how true this is for Haskell, as I don't know it too well, but languages like Common Lisp, Scheme, ML can be quite practical when you know what you're doing, while still getting excellent performance. Real companies also use them, sometimes even for flagship products.

I don't live in the US, I live in a country like the ones you like to outsource work to. I don't like to waste my time writing redundant code.

I'm actually glad that he turns down the applicants for mentioning those languages, as it's better than companies who advertise asking for academic "types" and then when they hire them, they just have them write Java (the trick is to try to pick above average programmers then have them work with average languages which can be maintained by anyone).

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 15:45

you don't think ruby is a real language....


ok then

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 15:46

>>1
Spot, my boy.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 15:58

>>1
Overselling one's snake oil



    '-._                  ___.....___
        `.__           ,-'        ,-.`-,            He mad!
            `''-------'          ( p )  `._      
                                  `-'      \
                                            \
                                  .         \
                                   \---..,--'
       ................._           --...--,
                         `-.._         _.-'
                              `'-----''

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:13

>>3
1/10
huge response

Um...

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:18

>>7
   

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:22

You have 10 seconds

name a programming language that was never academic at some point

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:24

Is emacs not written in a lisp dialect ?

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:25

Did anyone read >>1? Am I correct in that it can be boiled down to one paragraph?

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:26

>>9
COBOL. Java.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:28

>>12
The COBOL specification was created by Grace Hopper during the second half of 1959. The scene was set on April 8, 1959 at a meeting of computer manufacturers, users, and university people at the University of Pennsylvania Computing Center.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:31

>>9
PHP, Perl and Javascript

>>10
Yes, and so is ARSE

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:32

>>13
That does not in any way make it an academic language, particularly not in the sense the person quoted in >>1 was using it.
The argument in >>1 is almost incredibly poorly thought-out, and you're going to attack a straw man interpretation of ``academic''?

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:32

>>9
C.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:42

>>9
Java was designed by an academic, he was also probably a Lisper at some point too.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:45

>>14
Javascript was heavily based on Scheme, and had a C-like syntax to please the masses.

Perl is just a syntactic soup, and PHP is its even more badly designed clone.

I'm not even sure what kind of company the person who wrote the original text works in, but I'm guessing it's something which writes a lot of C and asm, possibly something embedded, as in other parts of the industry (and outside the industry) programmer time is more valuable.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 16:57

/prog/ trolled ☑
/prog/ not trolled ☐

Good job, OP! And you didn't even write this material!

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:01

>>17,18
Kindly review >>15.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:05

>>20
Learn to stop being trolled, retard.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:26

>>21
Polecat kebabs.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:34

Real expert programmer here. I agree with the OP and his source. Academic languages can have their use in the real world, but it is generally quite insignificant. Often, functional languages are relegated to being used as a DSL or high-level scripting language to glue the rest of a system together, if used at all.

Even The Sussman has switched over to teaching Python rather than Scheme in his programming courses at MIT.

Most people who brag about how great they are in Common Lisp or Haskell or some other functional language, while downplaying the importance of say C, C++, Java, C#, etc. during a job interview generally will end up being a terrible programmer when it comes to programming in an imperative language.

I don't mind hiring people who mention functional languages in their portfolio or interview, but they had better place precedence on at least one or two common imperative languages and have the skills and experience to back up their claims.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:40

>>23
Common Lisp isn't functional, but it supports the paradigm.
And most of us who mainly use other highlevel languages also know C and assembly and some other mainstream languages. We use the right tool for the job. If C makes something easier, I'll use C. If I need to write some unportable asm, I'll do it, but I usually won't do it, unless I really need the extra performance, or what I want to achieve isn't possible otherwise.

Even The Sussman has switched over to teaching Python rather than Scheme in his programming courses at MIT.
MIT switched, that doesn't mean Sussman fully supports it.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:42

>>19
>>1 wasn't intended as a troll, I think, but just as a ``haha, let's all laugh at this moron'', which a lot of idiots missed. >>23, now, that's a legitimate troll.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:44

>>22
Fuck off, ``faggot''.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:48

>>23
Anyone who learned assembly, C, or C++ and didn't move on to a better language voluntarily should be dismissed immediately with extreme prejudice. It isn't that C doesn't have a place. Even shit has a place. But people don't generally hang out in sewers, even if we all need sewers, and we all shit.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:49

Even The Sussman has switched over to teaching Python rather than Scheme in his programming courses at MIT.
The Sussman doesn't teach the new course. And he does still teach Scheme: His symbolic programming class used Scheme, and I believe the classical mechanics course did too.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:54

>>26
Fuck off, /prog/ you fucking nigger loving, piece of fuck.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 17:56

>>28
While I'm at it, I'm pretty certain that GJS didn't teach the SICP course either (or at least not for a while)

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:35

>>23 here
Sadly, I'm not trolling. I have 14 years of industry experience in C, C++, x86 assembly. I have 10 years of experience in Java experience, 8 years in C# and Python, 7 years in ARM assembly language, and 4 years of Objective-C. And that's just your core general-purpose languages. I'm also fluent in Fortran, various SQL dialects, CUDA and I'm currently learning OpenCL.

I also know Scheme, S/ML, Ocaml, and few other declarative/functional and imperative languages to varying degrees of proficiency. But I've never once used them to write real software in the industry.

I've worked in the games industry, aerospace industry, financial industry, and more recently as systems-level programmer on small-form factor consumer devices.

I will reiterate my viewpoint, and that is if you consistently proselytize a declarative/functional language while simultaneously bemocking traditional imperative languages, chances are, you're not very good with languages used in the real world. And you probably have less experience at actually getting real work done.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:37

>>31

bemocking

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:39

>>32
be·mock [bih-mok]
–verb (used with object)
to mock or jeer at (something or someone): to bemock a trusting heart.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bemock

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:45

>>31
But I've never once used them to write real software in the industry.
If you think that's even related to the point, you don't know those languages nearly as well as you think you do.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:47

>>31
I program microcontrollers in C and assembly for embedded systems. It's fucking garbage, but it's the only realistic choice. When I write automated testing programs for these systems, it's Scheme. What I can accomplish in two pages of Scheme is several orders of magnitude more than I can accomplish in C or C++ in the same amount of space and time, is safe, works right the first time (most of the time), and is easily extended.

You've mucked about in all that shit for over 10 years and you still haven't found a place for a decent language? My god. My god.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:50

>>34
So let me get this straight. You're implying that knowing Lisp/Scheme/etc. is really more about seeking acceptance in the functional circle-jerk on various online text boards, forums, and other communities?

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:54

>>36
implying
get out

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:58

>>33

chances are, you're not very good with languages used in the real world

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 18:58

>>36
Don't think he was implying that.
I don't give a damn about what people in other circles think.
I just use Lisp for general purpose programming because it saves me a lot of time.

Name: Anonymous 2010-07-16 19:00

>>35

Now, I know little of the language myself (and addmittedly little of C), but have you hear of PreScheme?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreScheme

Looks like it might work for embedded stuff.

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