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Programming languages that don't suck

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 15:41

Lisp, Scheme and Haskell are the obvious ones. JavaScript is a nice language. C always has its place. C# might be the jewel of enterprise.

What else is there that /prog/ recommends? I've heard good things about ML. A language that seems interesting from its Wikipedia page is Self, but I'm not too sure about it.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 15:43

How about awk?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 15:44

Python. It's fukken made of win and awesome.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 15:47

>>3 python is like the worst language if ever used.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 15:48

ITT WHBT?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 15:49

>>4
Really? If feels worse than Ruby to me, which is a shame since Ruby has some nicer features than Python.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 15:52

Self is interesting, but it's also dead and slow as fuck.
ML and OCaml have a cool module system, but everything else they have is better done in Haskell.
Prolog is very fun (non-determinism, homoiconicity, logic variables and more interesting stuff I can't enumerate succintly) but mostly useless.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:02

i think i should mention perl here.
i know its syntax is fucking bullcrap, but it gets shit done well and fast.

lisp and C are abvious on the list.

i also like lua, its quite nice as a scripting language.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:11

I like java because it gives me 80k a year.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:15

I agree with OP, you'll also want to include your platform's assembly, because it's simply needed to achieve low-level functionality, not because it doesn't "suck", so like C, it has its very important place.

ML is nice and minimalistic, I like it, and O'Caml can be pretty damn fast compared to Haskell.
Prolog has some uses in more niche domains.
Lisp is what I use for most of my programming as it's fun and one of the most flexible languages I've had the pleasure of using.
C# is probably the best plain/enterprise language I've ever used, it's not badly designed for an imperative language, it has a huge library with just about anything in it, and you can get using the library without having to learn too much, in that respect it keeps the brain-usage requirements pretty low, thus keeping the entry bar low, these qualities make it desirable for companies seeking to hire replaceable coders and still get an average product out.

I've heard of Self in the past, and it sounded interesting, but I haven't had the time to try it out, so I can't say much about it.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:35

Scheme

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:44

>>8
Ah yes, Lua. They're brilliant, starting arrays at one. And the logic is impeccable -- people are dumb, so let's not use the number zero. Hey I have an idea for a really revolutionary programming language that even half-brained imbeciles will be able to use -- let's start arrays at TWO!

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:47

>>12
Brilliant! This idea will be added to the trollgol spec

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 16:59

>>13
In fact, I'd be happy to read a Trollgol spec - I have computer languages this year and my professor has a good sense of humor, so I guess I'll earn some good grade for implementing something as ridiculous amazing as Trollgol.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 17:19

>>12
once you've written two lines of code in lua and realize you can index at zero, you stop caring about that and start liking the fact that it's really fast and expressive.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 17:31

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 17:52

assembler

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 18:31

compiler

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 18:39

interpreter

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 18:43

debugger

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 18:49

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 18:54

>>21
what countries identifier is `.clean'?

Name: 12 2009-11-22 18:55

>>15
The Lua standard library disagrees. Not that I care. I would've preferred actual zero-based indexing (like in EVERY OTHER NOTABLE PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE ON EARTH, EVER), but Lua is still quite neat.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 18:57

>>22
Botswana, Mali, Morocco, Nauru, Nepal, and Peru.

Name: 12 2009-11-22 19:34

>>15
Apparently you've never actually tried it:

‌‎>‌‎ t = {[0] = "a", "b", "c", "d", "e", "f"};
‌‎>‌‎ for k,v in ipairs(t) do print(k,v) end
1       b
2       c
3       d
4       e


Oh my, what happened? Where's my "a"? Oh yeah, [0] is being stored in the hash-section of the table instead of the array-section. Ok, let's try this:

‌‎>‌‎ for k,v in pairs(t) do print(k,v) end
1       b
2       c
3       d
4       e
0       a


What the shit?!

And never mind that print(t); merrily prints out something entirely helpful like table: 0x8b297a0. Or that you have to type a semicolon there, but you don't need one in the for-statements above.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 5:20

>>25
print(unpack(t))
No, you don't need a semicolon. There's an obvious reason why they made it so you have to use unpack, but it's left as an exercise to the reader.

Name: >>15 2009-11-23 6:05

>>25
for i = 0, #t do v = t[i]
You can change idioms if you care that much, but my point was that it doesn't fucking matter.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 7:16

So far:

Lisp
Scheme
Haskell
JavaScript
C
C#
Python
Ruby
Prolog
Assembly
Lua

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 7:17

VB

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 7:50

>>29
0/10

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 9:14

Erlang

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 10:24

>>26-27
The point is, the most obvious way that one would attempt to print a table does not print anything.

Also, unpack() still doesn't print the hashtable part at all, nor does it print any of the indexes of the array part. So you fail, and so does Lua.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 10:46

>>28
Narrowed your list down a little, because you had a lot of junk on there:

Lisp (specifically, CL)
C
Python
Ruby

The rest have highly obvious and irritating flaws that prevent them from being useful in any but the most trivial projects. Namely: Scheme has no libraries; Haskell is worthless outside of academia; Javascript is plain horrible; C# is just Java with a slightly different flavor of bad to it; Prolog is ... well, just plain shit; Assembly is completely non-portable, not to mention absolutely too low-level to be of any relevance as anything but an intermediate representation in any suitably modern program; and Lua sucks for aforementioned reasons (have you not learned from this thread, or are you that same Lua-troll?)

C has been around for decades, and for a reason. It is the foundation on which countless programs have been written, including most other programming language implementations, and its influence in software design and programming in general cannot be denied. Lisp has also been around practically forever, works very well, and contrary to what some people may believe, is used in many places. (Your car was probably designed with a program written in Lisp.) Python and Ruby are only truly worthwhile as front-end code, and fully useless for any heavy lifting, but they both work very well in combination with C for building GUIs, and writing event-driven logic.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 11:37

>>33
Don't forget Fjölnir, which is the only programming language that excels at "GRUNNUR".

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 11:43

>>31
You best be serious motherfucker.

>>33
C [...] its influence in software design and programming in general cannot be denied.
That's no excuse. What makes C good is that it is portable assembler, and assembler is often necessary.

I don't understand propping up Python and Ruby while taking a dump on Prolog. "A cat is fine too" applies here.

Regarding Lua, the fact is that it is better "glue script" than Python. Forget the language itself, have you used an app glued together with Python? It runs like garbage. Back in the day 1MHz was a lot, but our UIs actually had realtime response. Today, we don't have that any more with a thousandfold increase, and Python is batting way worse than average. Google is discouraging internal use of Python for this reason. (I could criticize the language itself, but I hardly care about what other people are willing to put up with in that regard.)

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 11:53

Scheme has no libraries
Correction, Not nearly enough PORTABLE libraries

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 12:02

Flash is the best programming!

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 12:02

Erlang
Yeah, the language where if- and else-blocks both have types, and they both need to return the same type. What the fuck Erlang.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 12:12

>>35
Prolog
Then show me a GUI application, written in Prolog.

And yes, I have used apps glued with Python. ArcGIS is a counterexample to your claims. Ruby has been used as glue code for game logic and other high-demand applications and it's certainly fast enough if you're not trying to do something dumb. Separate out the performance-demanding bits of your code, and write that stuff in C.

And if you think Python is bad because of the GIL, try IronPython, Stackless, Jython, or hell, even TinyPy. The implementation is not the language.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 12:13

IMPLEMENT MY ANUS

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 12:17

>>38
More like what the fuck any language which DOESN'T implement conditionals as expressions

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 13:05

>>39
Then show me a GUI application, written in Prolog.

Oh, that's your problem. Sorry, I'm not buying.

Anyway, I'm saying Python is used irresponsibly and that's what is wrong with it (implementation wise.) On the other hand, these other implementations still underperform, especially when it comes to being responsive. Maybe you're too young to think that 100ms is an abhorrent response time.

I don't like the language itself either, but I don't really care to get hung up on it. I might start throwing spurious exceptions. Feel free to claim that it's not the language's fault that so many libraries are written that way, and I will invite you to rewrite them to support your point.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 13:06

>>41
lisp does it quite well

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 14:02

[expert]
#include <lua.h>
#include <lualib.h>
#include <lauxlib.h>

static int ipairsaux (lua_State *L) {
  int i = luaL_checkint(L, 2);
  luaL_checktype(L, 1, LUA_TTABLE);
  if (i == -1) {
    lua_pushinteger(L, 0);
    lua_rawgeti(L, 1, 0);
  } else {
    i++;
    lua_pushinteger(L, i);
    lua_rawgeti(L, 1, i);
  }
  return (lua_isnil(L, -1)) ? 0 : 2;
}

static int zeroindex_ipairs (lua_State *L) {
  luaL_checktype(L, 1, LUA_TTABLE);
  lua_pushvalue(L, lua_upvalueindex(1));
  lua_pushvalue(L, 1);
  lua_pushinteger(L, -1);
  return 3;
}

char* derp = "t = {[0]='a','b','c','d','e','f'}; for k,v in ipairs(t) do print(k,v); end";

int main(int argc, char** argv) {
    lua_State* L = luaL_newstate();
    luaL_openlibs(L);

    lua_pushvalue(L, LUA_GLOBALSINDEX);
    lua_pushcfunction(L, ipairsaux);
    lua_pushcclosure(L, zeroindex_ipairs, 1);
    lua_setfield(L, -2, "ipairs");

    luaL_loadstring(L, derp);
    lua_call(L, 0, 0);

    return 0;
}
[/expert]

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 14:20

>>43
Yep. And they don't even need to return the same type, either, so you can actually use conditionals sanely.

>>44
Okay, now make print(({'a','b','c'})[1]) output b instead of c.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 16:43

>>33
Python and Ruby are fucking slow.

It all narrows down to C and Lisp. This is disappointing.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:00

I'd like to nominate Caml/ML. It offers the same speed as Haskell thanks to strong typing and easy type inference(unlike Lisp), and allows mutable variables without the pain of dealing with monads.

>>33
Really? I'd much rather use JavaScript or C# in place of fucking Python and Ruby.

I also nominate Objective-C as the worst C-based language.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:10

>>47
There's already an objc hating thread.

Javascript still sucks no matter what way you look at it. It's getting faster but not better.

And OCaml is pretty nice. Wish it had a larger community.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:14

>>48 i would rather use haskell than ocaml.
Why? Because Haskell has the better type system.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:18

>>49
Really? Haskell's type system looks really stupid next to BCPLs

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:21

>>39
I don't know that there are GUI applications written in pure Prolog, but there are quite a few written in some Prolog dialects like Visual Prolog, which supports OO. SWI Prolog doesn't really support OO, but it does have a GUI library that is at least object based, IIRC, and the interpreter's help viewer is written in it.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:23

>>33
and 1-based arrays are worse than if __name__ == "__main__": how (and don't get me started on Ruby)? i didn't particularly imagine lua to be such an object of controversy, but the fact that none of the discussion here has actually concerned the language itself is kind of sad. lua's 1-based arrays are kind of like lisp's parentheses: they scare away idiots but unfortunately attract trolls.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:38

I don't see what's so terrible about 1-based arrays. I don't know Lua, but if it's an otherwise nice language I can live with that mistake.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 17:45

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 18:15

>>54
That's not *terrible*, though. It's like complaining about a language because they used do...end instead of {...}.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 18:24

>>55
I'm sure he was just being polite and not calling them out for being the gigantic faggots they are, since that would be disrespectful towards that great computer science faggot who killed himself.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 19:27

>>55
It's dumb because everything else that you ever would want to work with already uses zero, so you're stuck dealing with both kinds of behavior and end up having to either document what functions expect a one-based index and what ones expect a zero-based index, or do a bunch of adjustments everywhere to appease some asshole who at one point thought it'd be a great fucking idea to start arrays at one, and go back on it now because that would take admitting that it was a goddamn dumb idea.

>>56
There's a big difference between just being gigantic faggots, and being stupid faggots. Lua's development team is comprised of the latter.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 19:49

>>57
Most of the lua development team realizes that moving to 0-based arrays now would break just about all the current code around today, and probably cause an untold number of headaches for all of their users. It's not because they think they're smarter than Dijkstra.

Name: Ierusalimschy ~ Lua Dev Team 2009-11-23 20:17

>>54-58
Fuck you, I'm smarter than Dijkstra. 1-based arrays are the real deal and one day we'll prove it.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 21:19

>>58
Yeah, because Lua is so concerned about not breaking code. Practically every release screws up something new.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 22:03

>>45
not sure why you would want [1] do b instead of C (indexing backwards??) but in case you meant
b instead of a (0-based indexing):

http://www.mediafire.com/?50yzezje052

diff --git a/src/lvm.c b/src/lvm.c
index ee3256a..06d8b14 100644
--- a/src/lvm.c
+++ b/src/lvm.c
@@ -130,6 +130,35 @@ void luaV_gettable (lua_State *L, const TValue *t, TValue *key, StkId val) {
   luaG_runerror(L, "loop in gettable");
 }
 
+void luaV_gettableX (lua_State *L, const TValue *t, TValue *key, StkId val) {
+  int loop;
+  for (loop = 0; loop < MAXTAGLOOP; loop++) {
+    const TValue *tm;
+    if (ttistable(t)) {  /* `t' is a table? */
+      Table *h = hvalue(t);
+      const TValue *res;
+      if (ttype(key) == LUA_TNUMBER) {
+          res = luaH_getnum(h, nvalue(key)+1);
+      } else {
+          res = luaH_get(h, key); /* do a primitive get */
+      }
+      if (!ttisnil(res) ||  /* result is no nil? */
+          (tm = fasttm(L, h->metatable, TM_INDEX)) == NULL) { /* or no TM? */
+        setobj2s(L, val, res);
+        return;
+      }
+      /* else will try the tag method */
+    }
+    else if (ttisnil(tm = luaT_gettmbyobj(L, t, TM_INDEX)))
+      luaG_typeerror(L, t, "index");
+    if (ttisfunction(tm)) {
+      callTMres(L, val, tm, t, key);
+      return;
+    }
+    t = tm;  /* else repeat with `tm' */
+  }
+  luaG_runerror(L, "loop in gettable");
+}
 
 void luaV_settable (lua_State *L, const TValue *t, TValue *key, StkId val) {
   int loop;
@@ -434,7 +463,7 @@ void luaV_execute (lua_State *L, int nexeccalls) {
         continue;
       }
       case OP_GETTABLE: {
-        Protect(luaV_gettable(L, RB(i), RKC(i), ra));
+        Protect(luaV_gettableX(L, RB(i), RKC(i), ra));
         continue;
       }
       case OP_SETGLOBAL: {
diff --git a/src/lvm.h b/src/lvm.h
index bfe4f56..268180f 100644
--- a/src/lvm.h
+++ b/src/lvm.h
@@ -28,6 +28,8 @@ LUAI_FUNC const TValue *luaV_tonumber (const TValue *obj, TValue *n);
 LUAI_FUNC int luaV_tostring (lua_State *L, StkId obj);
 LUAI_FUNC void luaV_gettable (lua_State *L, const TValue *t, TValue *key,
                                             StkId val);
+LUAI_FUNC void luaV_gettableX (lua_State *L, const TValue *t, TValue *key,
+                                            StkId val);
 LUAI_FUNC void luaV_settable (lua_State *L, const TValue *t, TValue *key,
                                             StkId val);
 LUAI_FUNC void luaV_execute (lua_State *L, int nexeccalls);

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Name: Over 1000 Thread 2009-11-23 22:10 Over 1000

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Name: Over 1000 Thread 2010-12-05 20:56 Over 1000

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Name: Over 1000 Thread 2010-12-06 9:09 Over 1000

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Name: Anonymous 2011-02-03 0:28

Name: Over 1000 Thread 2011-02-03 0:28 Over 1000

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Name: Anonymous 2011-11-10 11:32

>>1069
fuck you I'll reply if I want to

Name: Over 1000 Thread 2011-11-10 11:32 Over 1000

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