>>4
No, you're not. You can write your unreadable ``1337 h4x0r'' oneliners in Python too. If you're going to not indent properly, that's what you're going after, anyway.
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Anonymous2007-09-13 13:19 ID:yMqVHrFS
Telling people "you must indent your code" is like telling kids they have to finish their dinner before they can have dessert. In much the same way as kids might enjoy skipping dinner and just eating cookies -- whatever their reason -- script kiddies, for some bewildering reason, like to make their code look like ground-up cocks by not indenting it. But they're forced to eat their dinner because it's good for them, goddamn it.
Later on in life, they move out, and start to fend for themselves, and they realize, hey, if I want cookies for dinner, I'll have cookies for dinner. And then what happens? They become fucking fatasses and die at 40 of heart failure, because all they ever had for dinner was cookies.
Shut the fuck up and indent your fucking code, fatass.
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Anonymous2007-09-13 13:19 ID:wc/HM9Vx
Who cares about forced indentation (big deal); I'd rather that Python had end delimiters.
>>7 Later on in life, they move out, and start to fend for themselves, and they realize, hey, if I want cookies for dinner, I'll have cookies for dinner.
Not in my house, not in my development team. The cookies example is not really valid, because if you have cookies for dinner, you're just hurting yourself by becoming a fat American, but if somebody in my team doesn't indent his code, he'll be fucking with me when I have to read and fix his crap.
If you want to write quick hacks and find Python very uncomfortable, use Perl. For real work, there's a language where you know you won't have to deal with morons' code.
The forced indentation of code is a non-issue. If you write proper code, it doesn't bother you in the very least, because you're already indenting it. It comes at no cost; it's not like static typing or anything that could be seen as a pain in the ass. OTOH, if you write shittily, it does you and others good by forcing you to work properly.
I'm far more willing to maintain Python code than any other language, not only because it's guaranteed to be properly indented, but because the forced indentation of code keeps Perl and similar faggots away. It's the same reason why Linux Tarballs would choose C: besides of the language's benefits, it's good because it keeps C++ faggots away.
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Anonymous2007-09-13 14:17 ID:eqX2y2Mk
I couldn't care less whether script kiddies indent their code, but there are a lot of "professionals" who don't do it either. Eventually I end up having to maintain their shit and having it indented makes that slightly less horrid.
On the other hand there is plenty of tooling to do code indentation automatically.
Still I don't see the downside to making decent indentation mandatory. Yay Python.
>>12
I have written C for over ten years and Python for just a bit over one year, and I think the lack of those fucking braces is a great thing. I fucking hate those ugly things cluttering MY code.
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Anonymous2007-09-13 16:06 ID:Kos7Zxrf
Whatever it was, I'm rambling.
Name:
Anonymous2007-09-13 17:07 ID:V2eoxi1h
>>10 For real work, there's a language where you know you won't have to deal with morons' code.
You mean Lisp? It tends to scare the morons away....
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Anonymous2007-09-13 17:38 ID:j48YQp3Y
C++ has voluntary indentation of code, and everyone uses C++. Therefore, C++ is a really good language.
>>13
This is why I like end delimiters. It usually results in more vertical whitespace.
And then there's list comprehensions, which I see Python dweebs abusing so the code goes waaaay that way ->
Learn a thing or two from typography. Dense code vertically and horizontally isn't prime grounds for readability.
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Anonymous2007-09-13 19:13 ID:0xuX2pD7
>>12
With proper indentation of code, they're kinda useless. It's obvious where does a block end; I don't rely on braces to tell because it's (or it should be) properly indented. Anyways, you can use braces in Python too: if x < 5: #{
print x
x -= 1
#}
>>19 This is why I like end delimiters. It usually results in more vertical whitespace.
I love vertical whitespace (even though it's kinda useless). However, what of Python prevents you from using blank lines, which look even better than brace lines?
And then there's list comprehensions, which I see Python dweebs abusing so the code goes waaaay that way ->
You don't have the forced indentation of code in list comprehensions. If they get complex you can do something nice like: [i, j, k for i in whatever
for j in whatever
for k in whatever]
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Anonymous2007-09-13 19:24 ID:HLACdTGv
the forced indentation is ok. It's not forced because "yay the morons cannot indent", but because it saves you from typing and having to look at braces. Me? I don't care much, but I also understand that voluntary indentation languages also have automatic indentation in most of the cases so you can rely on that too.
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Anonymous2007-09-13 19:39 ID:00Wq+3eL
ONE WORD, SOURCE CODE IS STILL FUCKING STREAMS OF BYTES WHERE FAGGOT SHIT LIKE SPACING AFFECTS THINGS, THREAD OVER.
The problem with braces is you end up with two ways that blocks of code are delimited -- there's the visual delimiter, which humans recognize, and there's the "real" delimiter, which the computer does. This is redundant, and if you're not paying attention you can introduce subtle bugs that way.
for (i = 0, j = 2; i < 10; i++, j++) {
if (i == 4) {
printf("Oh my god, i is four.\n");
if (j == 3) {
printf("Zounds, j is three.\n");
}
for (k = 0; k < i; k++)
if (a[k] == j) {
printf("cocks\n");
}
}
}
Obviously this code doesn't do anything super-important, but it probably took a moment to figure out what it actually does when you look at the braces -- versus what it *should* do considering the indentation. Maybe the programmer missed a close brace at the top, the compiler complained, and he stuck it in the wrong place. Or maybe that 'if' really was supposed to be nested. Who knows.
The point I'm making here is, even if your language doesn't use indentation (which most don't), *you* are most likely still using it as a perceptual block delimiter, and that is a Bad Thing. When the language is interpreting the whitespace, that's GOOD because it means what you see is what you get.
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Anonymous2007-09-13 23:28 ID:HLACdTGv
and >>26, that's when you press the button called "indent". And the ide does it for you. Or better, the ide may indent as you type. anyway, I've yet to see this problem in real code. And what about the copypasta problem in indentation based syntax?
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Anonymous2007-09-13 23:55 ID:yMqVHrFS
>>27
The mere fact that you need an "indent" button is testament to the fact that braces are a bad idea.
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Anonymous2007-09-14 1:09 ID:1HOzbDWi
However, what of Python prevents you from using blank lines, which look even better than brace lines?
You're right, you don't. Only problem is that in production code I've rarely seen it. The Python programmers I've met (although they loved Zope, so who knows!) wouldn't know a code paragraph if it raped them in a back alley repeatedly.
You don't have the forced indentation of code in list comprehensions.
You're right, but that's something I haven't seen a great deal of in practice either.
Honestly I don't know why Python has list comprehensions. Guido doesn't want lambdas, and there's this whole "there's only one way to do it" ethos, but for some utterly random reason there's list comprehensions. List comprehensions are good for parallel programming, but thanks to the GIL that ain't happening any time soon.
If he's gonna stick with the GIL, at least he could have wasted his time on asymmetric coroutines instead of list comprehensions and half-baked generators.
Another bad thing about braces is the holy K&R-style vs. shitty-style vs. even-shittier-GNUfag-style war.
>>29 they loved Zope
Then they are not Python programmers, they are ENTERPRISE PYTHON PROGRAMMERS. I'm saddened that some ENTERPRISE programmers make it to Python and fag it up, maybe we should move to Erlang or something like that.
Anyways, perhaps we need the forced vertical separation of code?
I don't know why Python has list comprehensions.
Because Guido wanted an excuse to kill map and filter. But I'm glad we got them, they're a valuable feature.
List comprehensions are good for parallel programming, but thanks to the GIL that ain't happening any time soon.
In CPython.
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Anonymous2007-09-14 7:16 ID:QTZertJO
In CPython.
Too bad Jython is ENTERPRISE as fuck
Name:
Anonymous2007-09-14 8:37 ID:ql3H6t1M
There's also Stackless and IronPython
Name:
Anonymous2007-09-14 14:00 ID:ahM4/EQO
>>31 I'm saddened that some ENTERPRISE programmers make it to Python and fag it up
Indeed. Zope was supposedly the flagship webapp framework for Python for a long time. I think it did Python a great deal of hurt. I had to suffer with Zope at a previous job and... The terror! The TERROR! Make it stop, mommy!
But I'm glad we got them, they're a valuable feature.
Useful? To some degree. Valuable? I disagree.
I think it demonstrates how arbitrary GvR's thought processes are. It's trivial to get rid of map or reduce: get rid of them. You don't need a substitute when you have normal loops, unless you just gotta have them one-liners (helo 2 u Perl).
So much for consistency.
Anyways, perhaps we need the forced vertical separation of code?
An interesting idea. I have no idea how you'd do it though.
>>33 There's also Stackless and IronPython
Given that the Stackless, Psyco, and other interested parties are working on PyPy, I think PyPy is probably the future of Python. They're not afraid to add useful features either, unlike tightass GvR with his somewhat random ideas.
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Anonymous2009-03-06 7:31
The length bothers you that much just say code bind.