Raising the Debt Ceiling

Tea partiers, What the fuck is wrong with you? You're about to cause the US treasury to default on its loans. Isn't that exactly the kind of shit a fiscal conservative would want to prevent?

>this thread

>mon visage

I want my imageboard back.

How is it the Tea Party's fault when they(along with half of the democrats) voted against the bill in the house? 

What I'd do if I were in power:

>Tell US Citizens that your government fucked up, and will not be able to keep our promises.
>Tell Foreign Debtholders that we intend to honor our debts.
>Allow people to opt for untaxable federal land of their choice instead of SS checks
>Change Medicare to subsidize costs, not pay fully.
>Get out of the Middle East, Africa, and Europe, lower troop count in Japan and SoKo
>Tax Reform, either through fixing the Tax Code or instituting the Fair Tax.

>>42
That just proves they caused this mess! Their demands were absurd and they made a compromise damn near impossible. The fact that they still voted against the shitty compromise (that, just to remind you, neither side likes) only reinforces my point.

>>43
The Tea Party stood true to what they believed in. They wanted to deal with the deficit. The Republicans and Democrats created the deficit. These parties ruined the system and make a mockery of what was once a proud nation.

What mess are you talking about? It'll get a lot worse before it gets better.

What mess are you talking about?
The "standoff" that's been dominating the news for the past few weeks. The shitty last minute deal that was reached where nobody got what they want. The US Treasury almost losing its AAA credit rating. The stock markets' shitty performances. The rest of the world laughing their asses off at our government's incompetence.

The Tea Party stood true to what they believed in.
What exactly is your point here? That they are incapable of compromise? If both parties always "stood true to what they believed in" nothing would ever get done in government.

>>43
>>45

If you're trying to fix the economy, and you think someone else's proposals will be worse for the economy, of course you wouldn't compromise.  And the final deal at the 11th hour was absolute shit.  Cutting $7 Billion in the first year, and a trillion in 10 years?  That's a joke, and is just kicking the can down the road.

>>30
It turns out that economy on a national scale doesn't actually work the same way as balancing your checkbook at home.  Run your checkbook like a country, and you go bankrupt.  Run your country like a checkbook, and the economy withers on the vine.

If you're trying to fix the economy, and you think someone else's proposals will be worse for the economy, of course you wouldn't compromise.
Even if you're in the minority? Even if neither plan gets implemented if there is no compromise? Fuck off!

>>47
Works for China.

This thread makes me happy to be an Free market Anti-Statist.

Let me get this right. Cutting taxes and spending in GOVERNMENT stops Economic growth? Are you REALLY saying Government is the reason for economic growth? Holy shit.

>>51
Yeah, they don't get that idea. The idea that the private sector plays any role whatsoever in our economy is pretty alien to them. No wonder they don't mind trying to destroy every company they can. We can all work on the new government plantations. I hear the new union run task masters will only whip us half as often as some claim.

Can't wait to get me FREE Obamacare and die a slow painful death waiting for my welfare checks.

>>51
Pretty much.  This isn't about balancing your checkbook two ways.  Balancing the economy involves THREE columns.  You have the private sector, government spending, and reserves (replenished through taxation).  To get economic growth, you need a positive balance from trade + reserves - government (negative for the government account, because a government surplus takes money from the private sector).  Currently, the U.S. is running a huge trade deficit, so that's a big minus in the private sector's account.  Cash reserves are pretty low too - mostly as a result of this retarded debt ceiling we have (seriously - who gets to decide their own credit limit?).  So you need a substantial deficit in government to offset the other two - or, in other words, you need to be getting more out of government than you're putting in.

Unfortunately, the government takes in more than it gives back while refusing to curb waste and unnecessary spending. Entitlements will bankrupt the government regardless. The trade deficit can't be fixed without igniting trade wars.

Your theory might have worked if we didn't have trillions of debt piling up. It's a bit late to find a bigger cliff to jump off. If spending was kept under control in the first place, we'd be in a better position in order to deal with the failing economy.

We raised the limit just in time for it all to fall apart anyway.

>>54
>the government takes in more than it gives back
No.  That would be a surplus.

>>51
Are you REALLY saying Government is the reason for economic growth?

I know this may be a difficult concept for you but there is more than one reason for economic growth.

>>47
Why? That's a nice soundbite but why is it true?

>>57
>>57


becuase you have a finate time to pay back your debts, i.e. before you die, but the nation is not limited by 70 years, it can keep rolling over its debt as long as other countrys are willing to loan it that money, so barrowing more money is not as big a deal as between human beings, the scale of time is so much larger.

if our national debt increases, this does not necescarrily lead to a increase in intrest rates, and in fact, has not generally in the 20th century.

>>57
>>57


allso, the thing is, lots of the debt is in the form of bonds, so it is owned by americans, a body withen the lender, some but not all of it, is in forign banks, but a lot of the debt is still fluid inside the usa.

>>57
A personal surplus means you build your reserves, or put cash into savings, or you get a treat.  This releases money to be spent again (your boss spent it on your salary).  A government surplus means the government is taking your money but not doing anything with it - so why is it taking it?  A surplus makes sense in good times, because you build reserves that will help carry the country through the bad times, but a surplus is bad times means the government is taking in money that it could be spending (to be spent again by the recipients) or releasing in the form of tax cuts.

nigger president = bad idea

>>58
Keynesian economics sounds nice until you go bankrupt. See EU and America as an example.

We simply needs to control spending, balance the budget, pay off debts and somehow fix the trade deficit.

>>63
You've got that ass-backwards.  You need the balance of trade in order before you start balancing the budget, otherwise you end up running out of cash and actually defaulting.

>>64
Trade is unbalanced because one country is spending more money than it earns, the US is spending more than it earns because the government is borrowing by the trillion, a trillion here, a trillion there, Obama is like a kid maxing out daddy's credit card, government agencies then pay people and businesses with this money and imports rise.

>>65
Almost ALL of "Obama's spending" is really cost associated with policy mandated by Bush.  Quit spreading bullshit from your echo chamber.

>>65 Ever heard of the fucking New Deal? And what happened when they tried to reduce the deficit during a depression? Ever heard of Ronald Reagan? And how he spent like a drunken sailor to get us out of a minor recession? And left the country with its largest peace-time deficit in history?

At the rate our country can borrow, it costs a lot more money (even in the short term) to cut spending than it does to invest in our country. Hoover tried austerity when the stock market collapsed and he ended up making the depression astronomically worse.

Debt isn't that bad. Our's especially. But if you really did care about it, any economics professor/economist/turd with a brain and an economics textbook will tell you that creating jobs is the only fool-proof way to get out of it, and that's what every business channel is now covering.

>>67
Your revisionist history is taken out of context, nigger.

There is a point where even a nation can finally break into due to it's out of control spending. I'm sorry, but you're fucking too stupid to see what most Americans and most economists can see. You can't spend your way out of this one. It's broke and you're digging a bigger hole.

|Debt isn't that bad.

You lost the argument with that simple statement. You really don't get it. You never will. You're brainwashed by ideological garbage. So fuck you. Scream like a monkey.

>>67
I guess you ignored the role Democrats played in Reagan's presidency and how we got that debt. Funny how according to you that no Democrat has ever spent a single penny...ever in the history of this nation. Reagan admitted we needed a balanced budget amendment. Corrupt Democrats blocked it, as always, when he tried to do it. We wouldn't have these problems right now if he won.

So when do we draw the line? At 18 trillion?  At 100 trillion? At 5000 trillion? Basic math say this shit isn't working.

Get over yourself. You lost the narrative. Everyone understands that our spending is out of control and we will eventually go bankrupt or worse. Just look at California, it's fate speaks for itself.

>>66
I said "spending more than it earns", not "spending". If Obama increases taxation then the US will be spending what it earns.
>>67
The situations you describe were more complex than that, you can't claim you spent your way out of recession when the economy would have recovered naturally anyway and you can't claim laissez faire policies deepened the depression when a minute earlier you were signing protectionism acts, also it could be argued that since the recession is lasting so long that short term measures like loans are no longer applicable. We need to look into greater detail into this.

>>40
|everyone wishes to pay double of tax

No no, you don't understand. Sixty years ago the top marginal tax rate was 91%. Today it's in the 30s, and most super rich pay less than that because the capital gains tax is only 15%. The wealthiest people in this country pay far less as a percentage of their income than the middle class does. The wealthiest people in this country also control an overwhelming majority of this nation's wealth and income.

In the past decade we've cut taxes on the rich some more and started two wars. Add in a global economic disaster and that's why we've got the issues that we have today. The most obvious solution is to set the tax rate back to what it was sixty years ago, but that is not even on the table because all congresspeople, senators, and the president are rich as fuck and you won't find many politicians willing to vote against their own personal interests. It is not necessary for the vast majority of americans to pay a single penny more on taxes.

>>68
Nurr... most economists? I call bullshit. There are plenty of economists who think our last big stimulus would have worked if it were bigger. And plenty more who think sharp cuts in spending right now are stupid idea.

>>65
No, trade is imbalanced because your imports are cheaper than domestic production, and your exports are expensive as fuck.  Unless you end up exporting more than you import, a federal balanced budget is a recipe for disaster because the private sector will haemorrhage value.

>>71
The wealthiest fifth generate a higher share of taxes than their share of income, but considerably lower than their share of the wealth.  Arguably, the tax system should be set up to raise in proportion to wealth, since the poor generate a higher share of income than their share of wealth.

Actually, the debt by itself is becoming a massive problem. The US will eventually see that entitlements, by themselves, will  consume all tax revenue in a matter of decades and leave nothing for the actual government.

Stimulus is nice as long as you want fake solutions that add to the deficit. You need to eventually get back the money you invested. Otherwise, you just made things a lot worse in the long run.

|plenty of economists who think our last big stimulus would have worked if it were bigger.

The same people who think we can we can spend our way out of debt? How about paying it off instead. It's really that simple.

Keynesian economics is somewhat of an outdated idea. The fundamental idea is to dig a deep hole and keep digging forever. Needless to say, it's a very bad idea. It's like a pyramid scheme where the government can keep printing money forever. 

People who think that building up trillions of dollars is a good thing are retarded. This is why Keynesian fags are taking a beating.

>>75
So...our economic policy from the New Deal up until the stagflation of the 70s was a very bad idea? Do you think monetarism or some other policy would have solved it all? Those aren't rhetorical questions, I really want to know what you think.

>>74
Man, you would have LOVED Hoover.

>>70
Finally, a monetarist that actually knows what he's talking about.

But onto your point, the economy WOULD have recovered naturally from the great depression (according to the business cycle), but at a much slower rate than which it did.

|you can't claim laissez faire policies deepened the depression when a minute earlier you were signing protectionism acts

I'm talking about BEFORE FDR took office, man. Deregulation and inconsistencies in following Keynesian policy is the reason why problems arise with Keynesian economics as a whole. That's one of its core beliefs. You can't half-ass it.

>>69
|according to you that no Democrat has ever spent a single penny...ever in the history of this nation.
That is the exact opposite of what I believe. A balanced budget amendment wouldn't work because if there's ever a time when we need to spend a penny more than we have (natural disaster, war, etc.), we're fucked. States DO have balanced budget, but they borrow billions from the federal government when they have problems. Who would the federal government borrow from if we couldn't have debt? This is why the 14th amendment exists.

>>68
|most economists
I laughed so hard at that there were dogs outside barking. Do a little research, my friend, and you will find that most economists claimed it didn't go far enough.

|You lost the argument with that simple statement. You really don't get it. You never will. You're brainwashed by ideological garbage. So fuck you. Scream like a monkey.

That is a textbook definition of someone losing an argument, my friend. But I'll answer your hatred regardless. If debt didn't exist, loans and interest wouldn't exist, and I honestly don't know a single modern economic policy that doesn't integrate those.

Keynesian policy is still a death spiral in our present condition.

I like the way you pretend it's an argument about whether or not debt can exist rather than how much debt can exist before it becomes detrimental problem by itself to your economy.

Faggot, we know what debt CAN exist you stupid fuck. The argument is about whether or not you are digging a deeper hole or digging your way out of that hole. Thus far, you only repeat the fact that you think massive unpayable debts is the most wonderful thing ever. You seem to believe this is about credit or loans. It's not. It's about spending what you can afford within a budget that is reasonable.

You realize that you CAN spend more than you can afford. You do realize the interest on those debts will FUCK you as the debts grow. Bailouts, welfare and bankruptcy is a retarded business model even when you call it 'investing.'


The Keynesian Deathspiral only works in your head. Paying off your debts and avoiding deficit spending actually works for everyone in the real world.

“Excuse me, Mr. Nick!” It was Pearl Fey. She looked very small behind the tall oak defendant’s stand.Phoenix heard Franziska von Karma, the prosecutor, babbling something about her perfection, and decided that he could spare his attention. “What is it, Pearls?” He whispered out of the corner of his mouth. The girl stared up at him with her large brown eyes. Her silky brown hair was braided into two circles behind her head that bounced up and down when she was surprised or excited. And to top it off she wore the standard light purple channeler’s robe with a pink sash, only in miniature. “Mr. Nick, I have to go potty, bad!” “I’m sorry, Pearls, but you’ll have to hold it a little longer. The judge doesn’t look ready to call a recess yet.” “Oh…” “Don’t worry, we’ll get you to a bathroom. Just hang in there, okay?” “Okay!” said Pearl, breaking into a grin. Phoenix couldn’t help but smile back. He didn’t like kids, but Pearl never caused any trouble. “Mr. Wright! I would advise you to pay attention to your own client’s trial!” “Y-yes, your honor!” Phoenix stammered. The judge continued. “Ms. Von Karma was just about to call the next witness to the stand…” It was Lotta Hart, the nosy photographer who almost always managed to show up in time to witness the crime scene. They began the cross examination. Phoenix listened carefully to the entire testimony, and Pearl waited patiently. He kept reviewing all the evidence, looking frantically for contradictions, but the story seemed airtight. He could tell the judge was getting impatient, and his window of opportunity was closing. This looked like it could be the end… “Need some help?” A familiar voice came from right next to him, and Phoenix glanced over in astonishment. “Pearls? What…” His heart almost stopped. There stood Mia Fey, his dead mentor. He’d always had something of a crush on her, and now she looked more beautiful than ever before. Now, her hair was brown, and braided up in the back just like Pearl’s. He realized that the young spirit medium must be channeling Mia. “Hmmm…these clothes are a little small though.” Phoenix blushed as he realized just how short the eight-year-old’s skirt was on the fully grown Mia. It barely covered her crotch! And now Mia, who had always had a large bust, was quite literally almost popping out of the minuscule channeling robes. She must have noticed Phoenix staring. “Get it together, Phoenix! You’ve got a case to win!” He nodded and turned back to the witness stand. Mia continued. “Now, start trying to press the witness for-urk!” She suddenly felt an intense pressure in her abdomen. That little girl was working on quite a load! “Are you okay, Mia?” “Y-yeah…I’m fine…” she reassured him, although she was beginning to sweat. I’m not sure how much longer I can hold it. “Ms. Hart, isn’t it true you took more than one photo of the crime scene?” “Well, yeah! You reckon I’d let a story this big go by with just one pitcher to show for it?” “Would you mind presenting those additional pictures to the court?” “The prosecution has deemed the additional photograph to be irrelevant.” Phoenix pointed in his trademark gesture. “I think that’s for the people of this court to decide!” “I’m sorry, Ms. Von Karma, but I must agree with the defense on this – YOW!” Franziska cracked her whip viciously at the old man. “Very well! If you wish to waste this court’s time, I will present the other photo.” “Hmmm… what could this mean…?” Phoenix pored over the newly submitted picture for any discrepancies. “T-there, a contradiction! Think about the evidence you have and compare it to the picture you just got!” counseled Mia in a rather strained tone of voice. At that very moment she was forcing back an intense urge to use the bathroom by any means necessary. I’ve got to focus on the trial…she chided herself. But she could feel her concentration slipping. As her protégé raised an objection, she gripped the defendant’s stand with white knuckles. She shifted nervously in her uncomfortably tight clothing. She couldn’t really blame Phoenix for staring, after all, she was sporting some truly eye popping cleavage. “Are you really alright, chief? You don’t look so good.” Phoenix asked. He seemed genuinely concerned, as Mia’s face had blanched and she was now sweating noticeably. The air around her was beginning to waver and bend almost imperceptibly. “Don’t worry about me, you need to think of the client!” Ugh...this is the worst I’ve ever had to go in my whole life. I can feel my connection to Pearl waning… Mia quickly began to understand the bottom line: if she didn’t find relief soon, she would go back to the spirit world and leave Phoenix on his own. As the fight between Phoenix and Franziska dragged on, Mia’s eyes widened in desperation. An airy fart squeezed itself out of her, and the very tip of a hard turd emerged from between her cheeks. She needed a toilet, now. Her lips parted as an almost inaudible moan escaped them. She clutched her backside tightly and hopped up and down to distract herself. She stopped and doubled over as she farted again, louder. The sheer volume of feces inside her astounded Mia. She fought hard to hold it in, but it was a losing battle. The whole room started to narrow to tunnel vision, and the sound of Phoenix and Franziska arguing at the top of their lungs faded to a dull roar. This is it…she thought. It’s now or never. She relaxed her sphincter, and a large volume of gas escaped her. “Ohhh…” She ceased to perceive anything else in the room, except the blissful release she was feeling. She gave her body a push to help things along, and just like that she was defecating. Her eyes were closed, and beneath her slightly upturned nose her mouth was formed into an ‘O’ of pure bliss. The enormous turd that had been bothering her slid smoothly out of her rectum and rested against her panties for a moment, before another push from Mia caused them to bulge out easily with a soft crackle. The poop kept coming and began to pile into a mound. Even though everyone in the courtroom was watching Mia awkwardly, all she could feel was the warm, gooey sensation on her behind. If I had known how much pleasure you get from soiling yourself, I would have done this while I was alive! When that piece was finished, she could feel more lining up for exit. This one was wider, so she spread her legs and bent over the stand, revealing more cleavage. Her brow furrowed and she bit her lower lip out of exertion. Oh, my, this one is huge! What on earth did that little girl eat? She was so lost in concentration that Mia’s bladder released, causing a fountain of urine to cascade from between her legs. A puddle formed underneath her, splashing onto the floor. As she strained, Mia released a big fart into Pearl’s loaded panties. “Nnnnngh!” With the noise she was making, everyone in the courtroom was looking at her. “What’s going on?” “Mommy, is the lady going poo-poo?” If there was any doubt before, it was now clear that Mia was going poo-poo, as she began to push in earnest on the big lump of excrement inside her. Mia’s anus began to widen further and further, and gradually, her bowel movement began to slide out with a soft, crackling. “Nnnh…nnh…oh!” Her sphincter was stretched to its limit.Finally, the widest part passed through and began to slide easily into her heavy panties. “Ahhhhhhh…” Mia as the football shaped BM smushed at last into Pearl’s undies, which were adorned with bumblebees and flowers. The panties sagged considerably beneath her short skirt, revealing the crack of her bum, which was smeared brown. Mia stood up. Every man, woman and child in the court room was staring at her open mouthed after witnessing her display. Mia barely noticed. That was the thing about being a spirit, she thought. You don’t have to worry about the opinions of others. After a moment of silence, Mia cleared her throat. “If the court is ready, may we continue with the…oh! Ungh…mmmph…” She closed one of her eyes and grimaced. She pushed on her tummy with a slender hand and finally voided the last of her bowels. A thin log slithered out of her  and rested on top of the enormous pile in her panties. “Hang on…there’s more…” After an audible fart she grunted again, releasing a mushy mass of hot slop that coated her production. She nodded. “Your honor…?” “Well, I must say that in all my years I have never seen someone take a case so seriously."

Stocks began to fall sharply in October 1929. But the US government did not take effective measures. Its idea was laissez-faire. Austerity measures may be worse than  doing nothing. The US economy continued to contract rapidly until 1933.

The Roosevelt administration increased spending greatly, and carried out good policies. So the US economy recovered from the Great Depression. The Second World War removed tariff barriers, and the US economy grew remarkably.

Many people learned from the Great Depression, so many countries increased spending in the end of 2008. The international community has been trying to increase trade.

When the economy is in good condition, the government can reduce spending. But the US economy is not in very good condition. Spending cuts do not reduce the national debt. If the economy slows, revenues decrease. When the econmy grows and revenues increase, the national debt decrease. What is important is to grow the economy, not to reduce spending.