Dawkins goes on to ramble about god later but the first few paragraphs illustrate an important point.
It seems I am being told to ignore logic because it proves that sitting around dreaming about how perfect the world would be if everyone would just become perfect morally righteous anarchists anarchists is pointless. I'm tired of paying attention to anarchism, I have as of yet never found a practical explanation of how an anarchist society would work.
If anarchy is just a value and really you'd have some kind of democracy (doesn't matter if you call it a worker's council or a commune) then the democracy will be a state so it won't be anarchy, anarchy won't be the only value and anarchism is more or less irrelevant.
Anarchism requires that people cooperate for mutual gain entirely through autonomy which is expecting too much.
The only way to salvage anarchism is the former option, to take it as a value, specifically the nature of the state as a monopoly over force and accept that while it is ethical to choose the lesser of evils because a perfect anarchist utopia is not a possibility that we should not ignore the state's flaws and keep up pressure to root out corruption, then leave it at that.
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Anonymous2011-03-20 14:33
>>84
>>If anarchy is just a value and really you'd have some kind of democracy (doesn't matter if you call it a worker's council or a commune) then the democracy will be a state so it won't be anarchy, anarchy won't be the only value and anarchism is more or less irrelevant.
My friend, anarchy is not what it is sometimes mistaken for: A system with no rules and no order. Anarchy in a political sense in nothing but direct democracy. The state still exists if you want to consider the assembly or council a state, but it is governed from the bottom up instead of the other way around.
>>Anarchism requires that people cooperate for mutual gain entirely through autonomy which is expecting too much.
This is another misconception about anarchy that even anarchists make. Anarchy is not meant to happen right now. It was initially thought of as the stage after high level communism, when the workers will have made the elit class obsolete, have fully digested communism and therefore, the state stops being useful, therefore needs to be taken down in order to remove the final bit of oppression that is created by it. You are absolutely right considering that many if not most of today's anarchists are thinking of it as something that might happen within their lifetime. Personally, I don't think I will live long enough to see it happen. (Saying that, the zapatistas are sometimes considered to be a living anarchist society, but I wouldn't call it that.)
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852011-03-20 14:34
PS. More will follow, I need to go right now...
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Anonymous2011-03-23 3:14
I hope 34 is a troll. But even if he is one, i am amazed by the production of people with such wolrdview by the "american way of life"
>>92
It may be a good discussion or it may not be. It's not my place to judge.
You probably judge people, too...by their skin color, don't you?
I bet you do omg your racism is out of control, I hate you.
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892011-03-29 12:08
It was a fucking good thread and I'm afraid it was me who fucked it by saying I would post more and totally forgetting about it : /
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Anonymous2011-03-29 19:40
mercantilism
that is all
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Anonymous2011-03-29 22:46
What do you think of this thing that I've come up with dubbed "University Model"...
Where states are heavily reduced in size, to the point that they encompass only a small town or university sized area.
This increases competition between states heavily, and gives people a lot more freedom.
If you've ever gone to university, you know what I mean. Security guards patrol the campus and act as police, there are numerous facilities available for use, and most things are paid for by your uni fees, or 'taxes'.
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Anonymous2011-03-30 1:04
>>96
genius I like the idea but i think that it doesnt need to be quite that small maybe more like half the size of the mid size american states. obviously excluding california and the more populated areas that could be broken down smaller
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Anonymous2011-03-30 6:52
>>96
It reminds me a bit of "inclussive democracy". Have a look at this:
Local government should be strong and direct democratic but we still need a central state, we should be heavily critical of such centralized power and never pretend it's anything other than a bunch of sociopathic narcissists who have bullied their way into power whom are a necessary evil, but we still need it.
>>100
That's great in theory, but hardly anyone gives enough of a shit about local politics to make it work effectively. I'll be willing to bet most people here don't even know who represents their district in their state legislature for example.
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Anonymous2011-03-31 23:54
>>101
A relevant factor, you must be careful not to lean towards the "if people would just do this and this the world would be a better place" side of reasoning, the main causes of apathy towards local government seem to be the powerlessness of local government and the general boredom of getting involved with politics, even people who do care will not be interested in fighting some futile battle to transfer powers to their local government and reform the voting system. On the other hand if you don't push for new ideas at all then there would never be any positive changes, this idea should be at least laid on the table since it is the most realistic route towards achieving some kind of fruity utopia.
Grass roots action is one option, take for example the Amish who were made exempt from sending their children to state schools after a lengthy legal battle, as global warming and various problems arise there will be more stresses placed on the economy, society and government and people may decide they don't want a lengthy legal battle every time they want to make a small change in their communities, they will want direct control over their own lives.
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Anonymous2011-04-01 6:58
Okay. To make this conversation constructive, rather than antagonistic, what I see in common in almost all posters is that everyone agrees with decentrallization and the progressive weakening of central government. In that case, let's start pusshing it through, because regardless if you are libertarian, anarchist ar anarcho-capitalist or even federalist, that's what you want. Once local communities start taking self-control, they can decide what's best for them. Our theories and beliefs are still valid, but in the end of the day, it is a democratic right of each community to choose which if any of our theories and beliefs suits them best. I don't think any of us wants totalitarianism or fascism in their countries, so there's nothing wrong with proposing whatever you think best and let theothers decide. Welcome to democracy :)
To Reduce the weight and burden of the Federal Government, the power should be removed and returned to the State Authority.
When the weight and burden of the State Gov is too burdensome,
The power should be removed to a Count/Municipal Authority.
When the Burden and weight of the Municipal Authority is too great, the power should be removed to a community-based authority.
When the burden of the community is great, take personal authority.
If you are at odds with your community, move!
If you are at odds with your city, move!
If you are at odds with your state, move!
If you are at odds with your Federation, Revolt!
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Anonymous2011-04-12 12:23
Good thread bump
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Anonymous2011-04-13 2:06
I shall bump also. How the hell did the conversation/debate suddenly cease?
Pro tip: Stop messing with little boys and focus on girls.
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Anonymous2011-04-14 12:15
PS.
Unless you are a catholic priest...
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Anonymous2011-07-27 22:24
Bump
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Anonymous2011-07-27 22:25
bampu pantsu
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Anonymous2011-07-28 0:44
I am not sure if anarcho-capitalism really misses the point of anarchy entirely, but to me places like Medieval Iceland and the American Old West (which contain elements of anarcho-capitalism) sound like such better places to live then the current system of government than 2011 northeast united states.
I am not sure if anarcho-capitalism really misses the point of anarchy entirely, but to me places like Medieval Iceland and the American Old West (which contain elements of anarcho-capitalism) sound like such better places to live then the current system of government than 2011 northeast united states.