In defense of Capitalism...

Throw me your arguments against capitalism. Keep it on topic as well.

>>40

And how exactly does treating your employees and your customers like shit make you rich? Last time I checked people don't exactly pay others to treat they like shit. And I'm pretty sure both customers and talented employees will want to go to your competitors if you treated them like shit.

C'mon, how about we started talking SENSE here instead of some kneejerking crap.

>> 40
If I have the only store that's hiring in the neighborhood, like oh, hypothetically, how about WALMART, and you need to buy food for for your family and can't get a job anywhere else, and you get a job with me, and I treat you like, well, just about shit; you're fucked  'cuz there aren't any other jobs since all the mom and pop stores are out of business.(employee)
And then, since there aren't any other stores that you can afford to shop at since I pay you shit wages, I can sell you processed crap to feed your kids, and you can't really do anything about it since you can't afford anything else. (customer)
God forbid I should ever do anything like like that to you or anyone else. But many folks wouldn't think twice about it. It's happening everywhere in the "free market" : open your eyes.
But, of course, with ethical people, free markets work just fine.
Problem is, you can't have one system for ethical people, and one for those without ethics, 'cause it's not that black and white, and a lot of folks are many different shades of grey.

oops, i meant >>41

>>42

You (or whoever posted 34) said if I get rich BY oppressing others and treating them like shit. You don't, oppressing others and treating them like shit don't act to generate additional revenue. CAN you get rich while been an asshole? It's possible, but unlikely, considering how important communication and professional relationships are at high capital businesses.

As for 42, that's a completely different subject. But I'll comment on it.

>But, of course, with ethical people, free markets work just fine [if people are unethical, free market doesn't work]

Refer to what I posted on >>23.

Your standard for a social system to "work" is that everyone is happy and people can't be assholes by law. THAT is exactly what it meant trying to achieve Utopia. And we all know where that goes.

Can people be assholes in a free market? Sure. Is it a problem with the system? No. Will someone succeed in a free market BECAUSE he is an asshole? No. Does free market encourage or make people into be assholes? No.

>> 44
"Can people be assholes in a free market? Sure. Is it a problem with the system? No. Will someone succeed in a free market BECAUSE he is an asshole? No. Does free market encourage or make people into be assholes? No."

says who? I say it IS a problem with the system, and i say that someone MAY succeed because he is an asshole, or a hard-ass, or however you want to put it.
Look, systems aren't perfect: therefore there is a need for some kind of oversight, which won't be perfect either, of course.
Ultimately, everyone being free is my ideal, and I assume yours, so however that can best be achieved may be a better system. I think I like collectives and co-ops, myself, but I don't see capitalism as evil. Neither do I see it as perfect and ideal.

and yes, i did post  >>34

>>45

If the system doesn't encourage people to be unethical, then people been unethical is not a problem of the system.

In a free market, if someone is an asshole and gets rich, that means despite the fact that the immoral choice of been an asshole pulling him down, his other choices and abilities (those in his trade) is so great that the net affect still makes him successful. That's what it means. And that's just.

Human begins have free will, no political system can change that fact, nor make someone who wishes to act unethical ethical. Attempts to force people to act ethical by using law is the attempt to achieve Utopia. It will never work, and it will always drag society downward (I can elaborate and give examples if you wish).

To create a political system for human begins, the goal is not to create one that attempts to force ethical choices by law (to any degree), that doesn't work. The goal is to create a system that delivers justice, that if someone's net choices is positive and he succeeds in his goals, he will keep all he earned. If he fails, he's the only one responsible for his losses.

Capitalism is dying

>>48
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,969321,00.html
    *
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    * 0diggsdigg

Sixteen-year-old Nadya Vanova listens intently as a customer orders a Big Mak, kartofel-fries and an ice-cream koktel, or milkshake. After punching the order into one of 29 computerized cash registers, she nods and says, "Thank you. Please come again." But assistant manager Sergei Skvortsov, 25, shakes his head unhappily as he observes her trial run. "Nyet," he tells the nervous trainee. "Try again. You must look each customer in the eye and smile."

Young Nadya is one of 605 employees chosen from 27,000 Soviet applicants who responded to a small help-wanted ad that McDonald's officials placed last November.

The biggest problem has been dealing with the Soviet ministries, which still adhere to rigid regulations in doling out precious supplies. Explains Cohon: "When we need more sand or gravel for building and go to the department in charge, they say, 'Sorry, you're not in my five-year plan.' "

The venture intends to buy virtually all its raw materials from Soviet producers, no small order in a country where many food products are rationed and the term quality control is not in the lexicon. The Moscow managers have imported potato and cucumber seeds from the Netherlands and have trained Soviet farmers to harvest and pack the produce without bruising it. They have taught Soviet cattle farmers that they can raise leaner beef by castrating their cattle a month later than usual and slaughtering them a month earlier. To maintain food standards and keep the supply flowing, the company has built a $40 million food-distribution plant just outside Moscow, with its own bakery, dairy and meat-processing units as well as a microbiology lab.

Deal with it.

>>39
Hey pal you should pop a glock in your mouth an make your brain squishy

WHY greed by itself is evil? Are you really this dumb? Or another distraction. How on earth you can not understand somein as simple as greed is evil. You need splainin why greed is evil? Its seems an atttempt to derail the subject. I can see from your remark you probably dont understand "A man who wants a bigger house opens a new business and succeeds in earning the money needed; he's greedy, is that evil?" than your next statement. It seems to me you dont have the moral standards or common resoning to continue. You must be plain stupid or in need preacher. I think discussing this simple premiss would I think distract from OP's intent of the discusstion here open a new thread on this if you need help understanding common sense. 4chaners are here to help you with this!

If your stament was a troll. I must compliment you! Clever construction but basic "I am 12 an wut is this"

>>50

9/10 if troll, terri-bad grammar/sentence structure and high subtlety level really sets you apart from the average run of the mill trolls, bravo.

If not, then go back and finish school first kid so you can actually be literate before even thinking about making any serious comments on ethical and political subjects.

The connection between the subject of greed and free-market is simple. If greed is evil (evil as in destructive to human life, not as in evil because my preacher told me god said so), then free-market, which is the only system that does not attempt to limit human ambition, human greed, would be evil too. That's the connection, the connection between ethics and politics, try wrap your head around it kid.

As for the rest of the your illiterate garbage and pathetic attempts at personal insults, they deserve no reply.

>>51
But that is a point.  Greed by itself is not evil.  Greed being fulfilled by explicit and illicit activity unto another is evil.  Greed through any other means leading to such consequences is short-sightedness, a common affliction of people world-wide regardless of what activity they are performing; ignoring or shunning those consequences can become evil again, though that is not an absolute depending on the "consequences" in question.  Greed is just wanting something or a lot of something; when it goes beyond all other possible morality, then it becomes evil.

>>52

Pretty much that except for the last part.

Greed doesn't become anything, greed just is. If a guy decides to rob a bank instead of working hard to satisfy his ambition, his choice of method is what's evil and what will cause his downfall.

The old proverb "there is no sin except stupidity" is the truest statement ever. All wrongs can be traced back to people not thinking things through, that is the root of all evil.

But anyhow, the point is, the method to satisfy one's greed and ambition is where good and evil resides.

Like I said before, there are only two fundamental ways to gain more wealth: you create more though work/trade/business, or you steal them from others. One good, the other evil.

A good system therefore is one that allows for free trading/business/work..etc. in all areas, and bans robbery, thieft, fraud..etc. in all versions. And that is free market.

>>51
Eventually you will admit defeat and make mes you're King, and shower me with gifts and money and naked chicks.

>>55
This is 4Chan in all-text mode; we have neither money nor chicks, clothed or otherwise.

>>54

Okay. okay. I would argue that unfettered capitalism is now detrimental to life.
Why?
Look at the state of the whole fucking world!!!!
Clean water, clean air, nutritious food. Basic necessities for life, right?
Well, capitalism _ and greed _ have gotten so out of control that instead of birthrights, these have become commodities, available only to the well off.
Believe me, I fucking know, working my ass off to provide these basic necessities for my family while living below the poverty line. Why, because I happen to not be greedy, for whatever reason. Because I would rather work with my hands, be artistic, enjoy my son's childhood, and live simply. But in this world, such a thing has become a luxury.
By my standards, that is evil.

>>57

The food that you eat doesn't arrive at your table by magic.  Other people work to produce it and to get it to you.  Likewise with the water you drink, the house or flat you live in, the clothes that you wear, and all of the other necessities of life.  All of these are produced by the efforts of your neighbours.

You have no more of a natural right to consume the efforts others that the French aristocracy had to consume the produce of their serfs or the White plantation owners had to sweat and bleed labour out of their slaves.

We must all produce at least as much value for our neighbours as we consume, or else we are little more than parasites who live purely at the expense of others.  In a truly free market the price we get for our labour is unlying indicator of how well we are serving the wants of others.

If your artistic efforts are not well rewarded then it is because the honest and un-honeyed opinion of your potential customers is that your work is not good enough for them to want it.  You would serve your son better if were less petulant and more honest about your lack of talent.  Then you would see that you serve the world best by applying your talents however great or small in whatever direction delivers the best rewards.

In capitalism, rewards follow the wants of others.

>>58
1)Bullshit.
Water doesn't come from other's work, water is produced free of charge by our planet. The polluting and bottling and selling of it is capitalism at its worst.
The air we breathe has become corrupted: children don't even have the right to good health because capitalists have destroyed that too.
And food... you yourself have stated that GMO's are evil. Well, guess what: they're everywhere, thanks to pollination. Plus most folks don't have access to decent food anymore, at least not affordably.
So.Evil.Refute that.

2)I would prefer to make my own clothes, build my own house, grow my own food. Serving the wants of others?? SERVING??? There's my problem with capitalism right there. I'm not here to serve anyone, fuck that. I'll serve those whom I choose, and not for pay. I much prefer trade.

Your utopian perspective of pure capitalism is reeally outdated. We've already seen that it doesn't work very well. Why are you opposed to modified capitalism, hmmm?

>>57
THIS GUY GETS IT!!!
That is a guy I'd be proud to call a bro.

All you fat fucking rich better allways remeber theres more of us then you.

Sometimes I sit and wonoder how many times greed has destroyed civiliztion.

The rich and elites seem to be taking pride in the division of humanity. We use to unite to form a more perfect union. NOw is time take our wealth back.

Kill the Rich and Eat Their Children

The poor are poorer because the rich are getting richer. DONT LET THEM DISTRACT YOU FROM THIS SIMPLE FACT!!!

poor people can advance only when "the rest of society is afraid of them". give them reasons to fear us again and things will change quick

The result is that wealth accumulation is the product of carefully manipulated transfers that harm the working class. The ‘trickle-down’ effect peters out quickly as you descend the income ladder, with gains spreading little further than to the already affluent.

If you really want to see trickle down economics at work we need to kill off the rich people who are hording all the money. This monetary system that we live in is complete BS and forces people to live in a giant pyramid scheme. And the richer the guy is on top, the more poor people have to exist on the bottom. We need to balance that out by getting rid of all billionaires. They will never give up the money on their own, so we should just get rid of them all. The good of the many outweighs the luxury of the few.

FL School Board Shooter Posted Suicide Note Railing Against the Rich, Linking to Media Matters

December 15, 2010

Clay Duke, the man who opened fire on a Florida school board Tuesday, posted a “last testament” on Facebook decrying the wealthy and linking to a slew of progressive sites including theprogressivemind.info and MediaMatters.org.

The chilling Facebook statement, posted under the “About Clay” section, talks about being born poor and how the rich “take turns fleecing us”:

My Testament: Some people (the government sponsored media) will say I was evil, a monster (V)… no… I was just born poor in a country where the Wealthy manipulate, use, abuse, and economically enslave 95% of the population. Rich Republicans, Rich Democrats… same-same… rich… they take turns fleecing us… our few dollars… pyramiding the wealth for themselves. The 95%… the us, in US of A, are the neo slaves of the Global South. Our Masters, the Wealthy, do, as they like to us…

In addition to the note, Duke also includes a reference to class warfare:

“There’s class warfare, all right, but its my class, the rich class that’s making war and we’re winning”
- Warren Buffet

Besides the writings, Duke also includes an exhaustive list of links under the quote “You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!” The page includes a link dedicated to Wikileaks, another to a progressive 9/11 truther site, and even Media Matters:

http://metanoia-films.org/index.php

http://www.theprogressivemind.info/

http://www.axisoflogic.com/

http://carolynbaker.net/

http://www.accountabilitycircle.org/

http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com

http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml

http://mediamatters.org/

http://www.medialens.org/

http://redpill8.blogspot.com/

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Disinfopedia

http://www.stoplying.ca/

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/

http://luvsite.org/natsec.html

http://www.wearechange.org/

http://wikileaks.indymedia.org/mirrors.html

Is capitalism compatible with autarky? No because we give people "the choice" to import commodities from Chinamen instead of finding ways to create them ourselves.

My fellow Americans (as you like to be called), you now have the opportunity to prove that you are not passive slaves, the “sheeple” that they say you are. Over the past few months you’ve been forced to face the awful fact that you’ve been robbed blind on a scale that makes the Russian oligarchy look like squeamish Swedish socialists by comparison. So far, you haven’t done a fucking thing. Haven’t lifted a finger against them. The best you can come up with is either suicide (oo, that’ll teach the plutocrats not to steal your money and ruin you!) or burning your foreclosed houses down (a nice start, but still, why not burn down the bankers’ houses?).

>>59

1) Sure, there's loads of water around for free.  You can drink it by the puddle-full every time it rains.  But if you want clean water from a tap or a bottle, then someone has to work to make that available to you.  The only way that you can have a right to water bottled or on tap is if another living, breathing human being is obligated to provide that right to you.  In short - someone else must be your bound servant.  Do you have claim this as a right?

2) Congratulations, your preference for trade is the very embodiment of capitalism in the tradition of Adam Smith, Frederck Bastiat, F.A.Hayek, Ludwig Von Mises, et al.

The fetid mess that currently gets called capitalism is actually a mix of crony corporatism, mercantilism, fascism and a little capitalism.  So much force and fraud is mixed in to the market in order to sustain vested interests.

In capitalism, the banks would never have been bailed out when the credit bubble burst.  But then, a truly capitalist market place would not have had a Federal Reserve Bank to pump easy credit for housing loans into the economy.  It was this credit - unbacked by a real demand - that drove the housing boom.  Entrepreneurs saw this credit and thought that it represented real demand on the part of housebuyers and so they invested in housing.  Housing prices and all related costs soared while scarce resources were misdirected away from other sectors of the economy causing declines all around.  Eventually, the central bank credit turned sour as lenders realised that borrowers couldn't meet the costs of their borrowing - they had been given more credit than they could afford.  And so the boom turned to bust.  And believe me, its got a long way to go yet.

>>63
But there’s still time to prove that you’re not passive, pathetic serfs. That’s right Americans, here’s your chance to prove that you’re not slaves, that you won’t just sit there and take it when they steal from you. We know who stole everything from you. They don’t even hide—they’re all over the TV networks, bragging, strutting, laughing at you. We know where they work, and we know what they look like. They’re literally asking for it. Shouldn’t you, Americans, with your guns and your high and mighty talk about how you protect your rights and your property and your families—shouldn’t you, like, do something? They’re responsible for throwing you out of work, out of your house, bankrupting your retirement, destroying your life and your family and everything you’ve worked for. And they don’t even hide it! So, what’re you gonna do about it? Sit there and complain? Call another fucking rightwing radio talkshow and kvetch like an old Jewish grandmother? Do you have any fucking balls left at all?

What all decent people want to see right now is these rich fucks being dragged out of their mansions by a mob, shitting and pissing themselves with terror, then watching it again and again on Youtube with your friends

>>57

>Look at the state of the whole fucking world!!!!

Because the world right now is a free-market right?

All the shitty economic happenings are the result of socialist policies. None of them the result of free market.

>>59

1) Water delivery and purification system cost quite a lot pal. So if you want clean water delivered right to your tab, then yeah, it costs money.

If you think the service to delivery clean water right to your tab is evil and capitalism at its worst, you are free to bottle your own unpurified water from a river, I'm pretty sure that's free.

As for air pollution, that's a crime in free-market. You are free to pollute your own property as much as you want, but as soon as any of that pollution gets into other people's property, you can be sued.

>children don't even have the right to good health because capitalists have destroyed that too.

Everybody has the right to pursue a good, nobody has the right to a good. Since a good (house, health care..etc.) requires the work of other people, having a right to them meant you have an absolute claim to the work of some others, meaning they are your slave. Child or no child, nobody have such a right. There is a reason why Declaration of Independence states the right to "the pursuit of happiness" and not the right to happiness.

As for GM food, there is no scientific bases that the GM food served in today's market is harmful to health. But the bottom line is if for whatever reason don't like it, then don't buy it. You think there is not enough non-GM food on the market (those that are there are too expensive) and think there are a lot of people including yourself who want non-GM food? Open your own organic farm business or invest in one. This used to be what America was about, people making things happen. But unfortunately now we have fucking whiners like you everywhere.

2) Strictly he did mean trading. The last time you worked for no pay would be the time you truly served someone.

I would explain things in a more calm manner if you weren't such a shrill. Bottomline is you know nothing about Capitalism and nothing about the root of today's problems.

>>60
>The poor are poorer because the rich are getting richer.
>The result is that wealth accumulation is the product of carefully manipulated transfers that harm the working class.

At last you show your true color, and states the fundamental reasoning behind all your bullshits.

Your post shows a COMPLETELY fucking misunderstanding and ignorance of economics and the nature of wealth.

The only way someone gets richer by making another poorer is if HE COMMITS THEFT. Is that what you are trying to say? That every human begins all to have equal ability to produce wealth and if someone becomes richer than others, he have to have committed some sort theft by some deceit?

Or maybe you think the economy is actually a closed system, a zero-sum game, theft or not a person can only get rich by somehow hoarding more than their fair share? If economy is a closed zero-sum system then why the hell are we not still at stone age? Why the hell does this number called GDP rise?

>If you really want to see trickle down economics at work we need to kill off the rich people who are hording all the money.

What you think you are the first one who thought this BRILLIANT idea dumbshit? Soviet Russia did it, and countless other societies before them. Guess what happened after ward? They found out the hard way that wealth doesn't rain down from the sky and the economy isn't some zero-sum game.

Fucking ignorant bigot like you that pose as intellectuals are the fukcing reason why so much shit happened in the past 100 years.

i want to kill a rich man
to make up for the blood he shed
i want to kill a rich man
and paint the walls in red
i want to kill a rich man
to starve him of his rights
i want to kill a rich man
and make him fight his fights
i want to kill a rich man
just to make him see
i want to kill a rich man
then maybe we'd be free

>>68
apparently i have much pent-up rage inside of me

>>69

"I"

>>69
Just cool, that is :)

>>71
NO i cause i = legion

>>73

L = I right?

>>69  There are three ancient Chinese curses:

1) May you live in interesting times

2) May you come to the attention of important people

3) May your fondest dream be fulfilled

The last was written with you in mind.

>>68

People like him are not the reason for thing like Soviet Russia.

Uneducated masses who followed are.

>>69

You reminds me of those poor bloody commies who destroyed their own country by killing all the legit rich guys only to find out afterward that those rich guys didn't get wealthy by somehow magically hax'ing wealth away from others.

It's funny how after every wealthy professionals with legit skills in their trade dies, the wealth they produced when they lived doesn't trickle anymore. I wonder why is that hmmmmmm.

Well no matter, those commies had years of famines and starvation ahead of them to figure it out. Although it seems even to today, their small intellectual still couldn't grasp why.

My friends, I have the perfect solution
Guillotine
If it was good enough for Marie Antoinette, surely it is good enough for these people

We could kill the rich and feed them to the poor

>>68

You dumbshit, you don't get pissed no matter how bad the other guy is or else the thread turns into troll bait.

Ohh shiit, here they come.