I'm a moderately pro-life libertarian. I don't really know much about the death penalty yet, and haven't formulated a position on it yet. My initial inclination is to be against it, but I'm not sure yet. If anyone has some strong views on this from a libertarian perspective, and would like to influence me, speak up, now is the time.
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Xel2006-09-03 5:54
>>1 The death penalty is a last, cowardly resort, a sweeping under the rug to gain some kind of contended closure. States with the DP have higher murder rates anyway, and I don't think the penalty curbs jack. If you use your liberty of owning/using a gun to kill someone innocent, you've voided your right to the gun and your liberty to walk on the streets, not your life. The DP is a direct reflection of the perverted, vindictive, hang-'em-high morality of fundamentalist American protestants.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 5:59
>>2
(poster 1 here) One of the largest objections I would have to the Death Penalty is that it would seem to be a violation of the Cruel and Unusual Punishment clause of the 8th amendment of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. What do you think? http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html
Regardless of statistics, I think I stand with the Bill of Rights on principle. Cruel and unusual punishment (I'm starting to think the Death Penalty could qualify as this, but I'm not sure) should not be allowed.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 6:04
People should still be able to work in prison, but only to cover their own prison costs, anything they make which exceeds prison costs is their's to keep, but they aren't allowed to leave prison. The trouble with prisons is they spend an enormous sum of money watching prisoners and examining their assholes etc etc.. Prisons should be more simple. They should just make huge reinforced thick concrete cells which have been alterred chemically to be highly resistant to chipping etc.. 1 man per cell, 1 man enters the corridors at a time and goes to wherever his labour is needed, if he disobeys the prison guards he gets dragged to solitary for 12 hours.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 6:12
>>4
Yes.. they need to fix all the rapes and beatings that occur in prisons. Cruel and Unusual Punishment is prohibited by the 8th amdendment to the Bill of Rights.. and I'd say throwing a man into a facility where you know he is going to get beaten up and raped every now and then qualifies as 'Cruel and Unusual Punishment.' One man to a cell would help this problem.
Prisoners can work which would help pay for the costs of the facility, while not passing this on to lawful taxpayers, the Death Penalty would be abolished.. and the prisoners could then buy stuff with their money while in prison.
I am starting to think the purpose of prisons should be to keep dangerous people off the streets so they simply can't harm more people, but not so much to punish them.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 6:17
considering the ratio between people who get released years later from death row because of DNA evidence and those who actually commit the crimes they go to jail for, the perminent punishment of death is too final to be an option.
death brings no real closure to those who have lost members of their family (except for a shallow feeling of revenge), it does not bring back their loved ones, nor does it allow the prisoner to rehabilitate in any fashion.
prison is not mearly a holding place for wrong do'ers. it's a place of rehibilitation, even for those who have done such wrong as to 'diserve' death. no one has the right to take anyone elses life unless they are in immediate danger of being killed themselves. this is no differnt for our government or the criminal justice system. at least it shouldn't be.
and frankley, i think the idea of living in isolation for the rest of your life with no possibility of release a better punishment than an alcohol swabbed arm and needle to the vain.
on a generaln ote, prisons cost this country far too much, locking up people through the three strikes law with 'strikes' being filled with minor infractions instead of felonies like they should be. prison only exist now to make money, requesting funds for maintinence and accomodations for prisoners, then chort changing them in services, and providing little if any rehibilitation at all. the more prisoners, the more funding they can request, and the more corner cutting they can do.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 6:22
Why is this even such a big deal?
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Anonymous2006-09-03 7:04
>>6
"and frankley, i think the idea of living in isolation for the rest of your life with no possibility of release a better punishment than an alcohol swabbed arm and needle to the vain."
The goal isn't to punish them, it is to remove them from society so they can't harm more people, and maybe to rehabilitate them.
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Xel2006-09-03 7:20
>>8 "The goal isn't to punish them, it is to remove them from society so they can't harm more people, and maybe to rehabilitate them." Smyeah right. In the case of the DP, it's revenge. Inmates on life or awaiting the DP should be able to take their own life at any time, not have to be exhibited in front of a bunch of lvindictive, simple-minded excuses for Americans.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 7:39
>>9
Well, I was more or less stating *my goals* for putting them in prison. I know there are a lot of vindictive assholes out there who just want to see people fry in the chair. By the way Xel, you should see this movie if you haven't already: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120689/
I highly recommend it. Go rent it when you get the chance.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 12:43
>>8 >>9
So, the idea that maybe people are punished for crimes to deter future criminals never crossed your mind?
I don't care about some naive hippies who have no idea how society works, I care about the child who gets lost walking to her friend's house.
Maybe criminals should not be executed, but they should be punished.
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Xel2006-09-03 12:50
"Maybe criminals should not be executed, but they should be punished." Durrrrr-yeah. Haven't said anything else. But DP not work.
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Anonymous2006-09-03 13:51
>>12
Well my point is so extremely obvious and important I would expect you to point it out before agreeing with the person. It's kind of like..
Hippy: lol 2+2=23, therefore 1+1=2
Xel: I agree, 1+1=2
"Whatever the factors are that affect change in homicide rates, they don't seem to operate differently based on the presence or absence of the death penalty in a state."
>>15
Yeah, DP costs more than incarceration. Very very much more.
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Anonymous2006-09-05 13:11
The death penalty is a violation of the 8th amendment of the bill of rights. Abolishment is certainly in order.
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Anonymous2006-09-05 21:24
bump
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Anonymous2006-09-05 23:42
>>16 >>18
I find it hard to believe that the DP costs more than a life in jail.
Re-calibrating inflation for the equivalent in today's money...
No work.
Net profit of DP = -$50000 for the law proceedings etc etc..
Net profit of 30 years in jail = at least -$200000, guards, overheads, food, a gym, cable tv(liberals force taxpayers to provide cable and gyms for child rapists)
Work.
Net profit of DP = -$50000
Net profit of 30 years in jail = $40000 (assuming they on average make a $8000 a year)
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Anonymous2006-09-06 6:47
>>22
Net profit of 30 years in jail = at most** -$200000, guards, overheads, food, a gym, cable tv(liberals force taxpayers to provide cable and gyms for child rapists)*
fix'd
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Kumori2006-09-06 11:11
The Death Penalty should be abolished in my honest opinion, it's no different from murder. There are laws against murder, however, people using the DP exercise the right to murder.
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Anonymous2006-09-06 11:18
>>24
The death penalty is not murder. I am against it because it is a violation of the 8th amendment, but it certainly is not murder.
Murder is *unlawfully* killing someone, as you can see. The Death Penalty is legal in states where it is practiced, and thus is not murder.
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Anonymous2006-09-06 13:19
>>24
What about a sniper shooting someone who has taken hostages and is about to kill them?
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Anonymous2006-09-06 14:35
>>24
Also, the death penalty doesn't kill *innocent* people, unlike murder, with the exception of those few cases in which someone innocent gets convicted. But, keep in mind, if we didn't have the death penalty, those innocent people would just get thrown in jail, which is pretty bad as well.
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Anonymous2006-09-06 15:06
>>27
To people like that, there is no distinction between innocent, and guilty - its all the environment's fault, more or less.
>>26
Your comparison is a bit off-mark. The right equivalent to death penalty would be for the sniper to patiently wait until all the hostages have been killed one by one, and *then* shoot the guy, when there is no possible hope of bringing the victims back.
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Anonymous2006-09-06 17:54
>>31
So you believe the sniper has the right to murder the hostage taker?
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Anonymous2006-09-06 20:36
>>30
is a freeloading nigger.
lol we don't have food stamps in Canada, and no you can't exchange them for currency.
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Anonymous2006-09-06 20:56
>>(liberals force taxpayers to provide cable and gyms for child rapists)
outrageous! cable TV? a gym? it's like a paradise in there!
>>26
no one has the right to kill anyone else, unless that person is in immediate risk of being killed. so DP is a no, but sniping a hostage taker is a yes. DP has nothing to do with self defence, it's purely revenge, trying to fill an emotional gap with a sadistic action. The practice of eye for an eye considering violence is illegal in this day and age, so why should we encourage it in our criminal justice system?
>>27 'with the exception of those few cases in which someone innocent gets convicted'
that's backward. more people are released due to new DNA evidence than are actually guilty. See, at least with a life sentance, there's always the chance a wrongfully convicted person can be released after new evidence, while with the DP, there is no taking back the punishment.
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Anonymous2006-09-06 21:12
How about we have the DP, but every 10 years we execute everyone in prison.