Should Women Make Equal Incomes?

I used to think so.  After a little consideration, however, I notice that men have god knows how many social obligations to do everything for women.  If taken out to eat, it is customary for the MAN to pick up the tab.  When dating, the MAN is supposed to buy her expensive shit, like jewelry, to name one. 

As long as society pressurizes and expects men to wait on them hand and foot, I think the fact that men tend to make higher incomes is justified. 

>>1
Agreed, 100%.

You see, the reason men are expected to do this is because it is their natural biological role.  Men have a 'duty' to look after the women, take care of them, etc. This is all there is to it.  Don't like it? Tough shit. 

Bah, it's up to employer to pay what he wants to pay. Minimum wages are good thing, but restricting it beyond that is just stupid.

>>3
Well, if you don't like it you can become woman for man. It's not that hard. Infact finding man might be easier than woman.

Equal pay for equal work.  Bitches just need to stop being so lazy.

Whatever people are paid should be voluntary, private agreements between them and their employer(s). 

>>1
Good point. 

>>7
Better point. 

Remember the new "Support the Criminals" Boycott on September 2nd. 

The leaders are claiming that "they are going to get what they (the illegals) want and deserve, and whole lot more".

IS THAT A DECLARATION OF WAR AMERICA?

Women only makes less money on average because they contribute less on average. Man or woman, a job pays the same. Conclusion: women hold shittier jobs.

>>10
>>6

only winnars of thread

>>7
>>private agreements between them
government wants its tax

A bit of an expansion on what >>10 said:

Women tend to work shorter hours, and work for fewer years.  The main field where they earn less is in management, however, the differences are so great (due to the fact that people in management make disproportionately larger amounts of money for their work), that the averages are drastically affected.  (Women actually make more on average in some fields, such as Engineering, and are pretty much equal in low-level jobs).

A woman usually has plans, such as a family, or other things, that keep her from working the 80 hour weeks, and kissing the asses of their superiors, that get males promotions.  To get to the top of the corporate ladder, one must kiss a lot of ass, spend a lot of time traveling on airplanes, and have no life at all.  Men will dedicate their lives to making money, and will spend all of their time climbing this ladder, while many women want to have a life outside of their work, and therefore, aren't willing to do this crap.

This is why there is such a huge difference in wages in management-level jobs, and since the top 1% of money-earners in the United States earn 60% of the money, that drastically skews the average.

>>1
gb2 nazi germany circa 1940

>>14
Why?

>>15 No. 14 here probably considers everyone that tries to explain the situation without pointing at patriarchal structures as "kinder, kirche, küche"-people. Which is dumb. A female baby could be raised into the next hyper-stressed, moneymaking ladderclimber, and any male baby could be trained into some kind of opposite. I have no problems with gender roles per se, I just think the roles are to distant, destructive and that society works against itself by enforcing them.

>>16
So in your opposition to "gender roles", surely, you are going to be consistant, and also oppose the "gender role" that men seem to have, which socially at least, dictates that they financially take care of everything?

For some reason, if the man doesn't, he's an "ass" according to society.  I find it strange that many of those who say as much also proudly proclaim they are in favor of equality between the genders. 

>>17 I don't think that it is a good idea that one gender is molded to be more financially aligned than the other. I understand that gender roles are unavoidable, but that doesn't mean I don't hold contempt towards the contemporary ones and no hostility towards those that perpetuate them. I think it is preferable that all humans are fiscally responsible and that the same expectations are held towards all citizens.

>>18
and the evidence from statistical studies that show gender often makes no difference.

>>16
I think gender roles are good thing for society, but gender shouldn't really matter. I mean it's good when we have traditional gender roles, but we should allow women to become men and vice versa. Maybe we should stop calling them "gender" roles, but I don't really know what we should call them then.

>>20
>>gender roles are good thing for society, but gender shouldn't really matter
can't have both. The key is balance ppls, balance.

I think that people should be free do whatever they want, however, I also think that making a big fuss about it (Holding rallies, whatever) is destructive in itself and makes closet sexists, racists and bigots.

Furthermore, equal work, equal pay, simple as that. If a woman wants to get a job, she has to meet the qualifications of the employer.

>>20
Women and men are biologically different though.  This doesn't make sense, and for all we know, may not work as well or right. 

I say give people freedom.  I wouldn't look down upon them for having basic gender role related ideas, such as family structure and such, much as we have now.  It's probly a good thing. 

>>23
Both women and men are very similar in the end. Physically men are stronger and bigger, but that's about only real diffrence(aside genitals ofcourse). There are women who are like men as well as men who are like women. I don't mean transsexual, gays or anything like that. I mean tomboys and girly boys. They're minorities, but I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to be what they are.

>>24
That's not at all the big difference.  Why are men and women different? Their genetics are different, and they produce different hormones.  The man has testosterone, is aggressive, large, powerful, and strong.  He makes a good hunter & protector.  He's the breadwinner (biologically speaking).  This is his natural gender role.  The mother is the opposite - is naturally inclined to nurture the children.  The father then protects, and possibly plays some role in raising the children as well, though mostly this is overseen by the mother. 

I can point out some fun facts from Sweden:
1. Girls have on average better grades in every single subjec except sports.
2. Out of all people that graduated from a university last year, only 35% were men.
3. More women than men have graduated from a university since 1977.
4.Yet the swedish average woman get 20-25% less income than the average man.
Best person for the job, yeah right.

>>26
1-3 sounds like utter bullshit.

First of all, if you don't like these "obligations" that a man "has to do" when they have a female mate, then don't do them.  Sorry, but I refuse to constantly pay my woman's way when it comes to food, movies, or whatever.  I might pay as a gift or because I *want* to, but society will *not* force me to do so.  If the woman in question doesn't like that, then get the hell out of my house, bitch.

Secondly, gender roles are not a good thing for modern society.  Let everyone find their own place and be happy with it, and don't laugh or criticize them for doing so.  There is nothing wrong with the father wanting to stay home and take care of the kids while the mother works and supports them.

Gender roles harm men as well as women -- just because you're happy with your male breadwinner role doesn't mean that all men are.  Many of the examples cited in this thread aren't relavant to today's society, since physical strength is mostly irrelevant for many professions.  While I don't think that women should get special treatment, such as being allowed into certain physical professions (firefighter, cop) with lower physical standards, I think that as long as they can do the job they should get equal pay.

>>27 True True and true, actually. Swedish men suck, and I know this from first-, second- and third-hand experience. They're either immature fagbashers who shuv small bags of tobacco between their gums and upper lips or postmodern pipsqueaks who write in Swedish equivalents of Vice magazine and write columns upon columns about Pet Shop Boys and what is the new black. I love Sweden, but it is an abusive relationship. The reason Swedish women don't get the same pay is that they are taught to be less competitive, less selfish, less outspoken and to aim for low-paying jobs in the public sector (women who take care of people get less pay than men that take care of monkeys is a trite but true proverb here). Then there's the whole "home or career" debate. Considering that Scandia is supposed to be the most gender-equal part of the world is enough to make one curl up in a foetal position and ask Jesus to speed up that coming of his.
>>28 *Applause*

>>28
Yeah and then never get laid or have a successful personal life due to not wanting to 'fullfill' those obligations.... yeah..

As long as men are expected to act this way, I'm not going to complain about them making more money, since they have to spend more money to get by as well.

>>30 A women who relies on me in any way that I don't rely on her is not someone worth having. I am a male (ruled by biology), not a man (trying to fit in an arcahic role enforced by society). Independence, confidence, self-reliance and personal strength or GTFO.
>>31 Um? Males need some more money for food, anti-perspirants but that's it. Everything else is what MEN are supposed to buy, mostly stupid shit we are expected to purchase in order to appear real masculine like (expensive shit = moolah = success = "your cubs are safe with me"). Women are taught to complete cosmetical, emotional, esthetical and social goals and that entails a shitload of wasted money (much shoes and giggles = win at life, just like Carrie Bradshaw!!!!!). The only wastes of money men get for themselves (cars, hobby-related stuff) are less expendable and multi-purpose. This doesn't make the purchase of them less pathetic however.

>>32
I was referring to shit like picking up the tab for dinner and stuff, which men are still expected to do, particularly in the USA.  As long as men are expected to pay for everything done between a couple, I think it is justified that men make more money on average, and while I wouldn't pass any laws regarding the situation, I certainly am not going to complain that women make less, or jump on the feminist bandwagon either. 

>>33 "Feminist bandwagon"... There is something horrible about that kind of sentiment. Maybe if men and women made equal money or were taught to be somewhat equally constructive and affluent... No wait then we would be populists. 

I can't believe some people are complaining about paying for dinner!  What about all the times spent by women in cooking, cleaning, and child rearing?  Surely, the guys don't always pick up the tab for the groceries...

>>34
Populism=communism

>>35
And what about all the time spent by men going to work and earning money so that it is all possible in the first place?

And, moreover, what makes you think the WOMAN does all that, Mr. Feminist?

>>36 "Populism=communism" The largest possible populist ever is currently the most powerful man in the world, thanks to the sensibilities and rationality of the US.

"And what about all the time spent by men going to work and earning money so that it is all possible in the first place? And, moreover, what makes you think the WOMAN does all that, Mr. Feminist?" Ugh. Women and men should pull the same weight, be ready to do the same things at any given time and not get stuck in mores.

This has little to do with feminism, more like whether women get liberty or not.

As a libertarian anti-feminist anti-masculinist, I believe women should get paid the same.

>>1
Only suckers have to resort to buying things and dinners to impress women.