>>186 Can you... Ban murder? Did you know it is possible to work both at the roots and the leaves? Or that the tough-on-crime policies aren't the best way to go? Also, I am not talking about what government is allowed to do to, I am talking about what society demands, and society is not rigid nor is it capable of reason and self-scrutiny. It's as if the individual responsibility for the state of society is forgotten in America.
"#Just because I have the ability to erect a structure, that doesn't mean I know everything about the ground that I'm gonna build it on. I'll need a geologist for that. The man is the construction worker. The women is the geologist. Only the women can reveal what kind of resources are necessary here" And then leave the maintenance of the structure to society and the woman (the woman is economically screwed because American society doesn't care about single parents and the government has to enact institutions to help the two survive. What a patriot.)
"Then again, if the woman abides the man without the condom, it's reasonable to assume there's no problem with her. Considering she's the one who would "give fucking birth," she'd best understand if there is a severity to whether or not the condom is necessary." I can just swing right back and say that the man should understand the severity of labor and parenthood.
"Your inability to accept the fact that the woman best understands the place where the baby would grow is either ignorance, stupidity, or denial." So women should have to take responsibility to monitor their cycles, in order to make up for the fact that she isn't offering condoms to any potential partner.
"You'd be surprised to know (since it's your view that all responsibility is on the guy in regards to pregnancy) there's many males who wouldn't "hop in." Plenty of guys don't want to be stuck with a kid, so they just stay away. Perhaps this is too hard for your over-sexed mind to understand, but it's true." Of course all men aren't the same, but this is where you get some stats and support your claim about reality. Also, men are never really stuck with the kid, I just think half the responsibility is theirs. Your diametrical brain thinks that by saying that women shouldn't have full responsibility just because they provide the womb, that means I suddenly want to put all the responsibility on men. I haven't said that but your weak mind inferred it.
"You really have no idea what "strawman" means. You were implying that the state doesn't execute real criminals by only focusing on the killed innocents. I pointed this out. No strawman here." I was implying that when faced with the *fact* that so many innocents had been killed, the system should overlook it's nature if it was to keep the privilege of removing people. This is like me telling a cop he has forcefully arrested and traumatized people based on hearsay, prejudice and hunches, and when I point this out he says "So you are saying I shouldn't put the bad guys in as well?". The cop would be making a strawman of my position, so did you.
"Not only have you created a fantastical statistic for the effects of DP causing more crime (and actually had the gaul to say it was "proven"), but you also repeat your previous logical fallacy that because there will always be a margin of error in sentencing, there will never be a person who's guilty that goes to the chair." I am saying it is odd that you condone a government that has taken it's superiority for granted to the degree that it shouldn't change depending on the results of its actions. States with DP have higher crime rates (
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=169 ) but I guess the plebecite demands blood just to be on the safe side.
"This is specious reasoning. If those very college kids you speak of were running the system and were advocating the DP, you'd still speak against it." Um, because a government is supposed to prtoect life - oh that's right you are a "utilitarian-libertarian". Nice little loophole there. But then I have just offered support for my claim that more people suffer crime in a state with DP, so maybe the utilitarian solution doesn't require government murder?
"You've just contradicted yourself right. First you say that your views aren't in allignment with the idea of selective birth and the you add a footnote that says you agree with its tenets. Whether or not it's your primary argument for the pro-abortion argument or not makes no difference in the presence of the fact that you're at least willing to tolerate the reasoning--If not totally believe it." I said I believe the practice of abortion has a utilitarian effect, but that it isn't the main reason of my position. There is no dependence.
"I agree. But as I pointed out before, you're never going to be happy with it no matter how good it gets. You're only willing to tolerate the idea of a perfect DP enforcement in the hypothetical sense. In which case, your 'better' vision of what DP should be is never going to leave the realm of fantasy in your mind. Just like how I know that our future is not going to resemble Star Trek." What we have is not some imperfections that will balance out naturally. What we have is a self-righteous form of jurisprudence (and accompanying supporters) that don't believe there is a problem and take's its right over the individual for granted. No libertarian can accept such supremacy.
"Society already has acknowledged the causes: Idiocy and irresponsibilty. Both of which can be remedied before conception." What are the causes of Idiocy and irresponsibility? Feminists? Socialists? Pixies?
"No. Mental hospitals cost twice as much as prisons do since the patients need more care. Costs would sky-rocket if they actually became as big as the prisons. In addendum, patients who get released often stop taking their meds and become a menace to society once again." Okay, perhaps treatment isn't the best, but the DP is too expensive (
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#financial%20facts ). So, if you are ready to make people pay for these expensive trials, why shouldn't they be able to make you pay for abortions?
"That's gotta be the stupidest thing you've said thusfar. Neither the Crips nor the Bloods fought over drugs--And they didn't even use guns either. The East/West coasts didn't fight over drugs either. In the case of gangs, drugs are the icing, not the motivation." First, claims on reality requires support. Secondly my point stands; When laws are imposed on liberties (guns, drugs) then the people who use these liberties are probably going to lack morality (the law-abiding citizens stay away even though they shouldn't have to). Also, the limited market and the nature of the people in the market are going to lead to fierce competition by all means necessary.
"So, because alcohol is legal, you think drugs like LSD and heroin should be legal?" Yup. Alcohol intake and influence is responsible for untold suffering and costs. Would a "utilitarian-libertarian" stand by that? MJ requires the consumption of a telephone post's worth for an OD, not to mention it has a different effect on the individual.
"Jebus! People shouldn't be turning to them at all for crying out loud!" Why do people turn to drugs/selling drugs in order to forget/make money? Because of feminists?
"This entire paragraph is just so insanely ludacris. By your standards, anyone who loses "consciousness" is free game to execute." Okay, poor argumentation semantically. Sentience/unique personality is better here.
"Or you're just too pig-headed to understand that I already have demonstrated that 3 times over." NO U! Okay, you are too pig-headed to see I have asked you what the causes of your causes are, but I guess humans make themselves.
"The causality of birth attributes to your personality just as much as those other defining moments do. It's called the Butterfly effect. So yes, if that baby was killed, you would be killed too." No, my flesh would be gone but *I* would not have existed at the time. Then again, *I* would never be able to have come to pass without a specific body and brain to grow in, but I would not be aware of the loss.
"This is actually totally in sync with happened to the guy who got a blow job from a woman who saved the semen she recieved in her mouth and then inseminated herself with it. Afterwards, she forced him to pay child support. Technically, by your screwed up logic, because he donated the semen to her body, he's responsible for the baby." Fringe situation. Plus, unless you are willing to change the judicial system then you can't complain.
"Actually, people do indeed realize that the fetus is alive and, as so many people like to word-whore, "sentient". Just because you don't view the individuals that disagree with you as actual people, that doesn't mean they aren't. It just means you're stupid. You're inability to prove non-life of a fetus just compliments that." Word-whore. That is almost creative. Also, I believe this murder has a utilitarian effect, so as long as you can stick by DP I can now stick with abortions.
"It has nothing to do with how it "might" and everything to do with how it "will." Selective birth is exactly why France is in such bad shape. Their native population is at an all time low not only out of "fear" of overpopulation, but also of derelect citizens. As a result, its constituence is so low, they couldn't even fight a war if they found that they needed to." In this case the abortions are the result of the nation's relative safety from outside attackers. Also, I doubt that fear of overpopulation is a conscious reason for their pro-abortion stance.
"Some people just can't stand intelligent and insightful women." They're called 'evangelicals'.