Return Styles: Pseud0ch, Terminal, Valhalla, NES, Geocities, Blue Moon. Entire thread

For the buddhists

Name: Enlightened One 2007-11-09 13:42

Look, buddhists:

1. No matter how many books you read, sitting beneath a tree nearly starving yourself to death just because you've got nothing better to do, will not make you the fucking all-knowing god of emos.

2. No matter how much you wish it were true, life will not compensate you for your losses, nor will it punish your enemies, you whining, hateful hypocrites. Karma is a LIE.

3. There is NO proof of rebirth, so no matter how much Buddha tells you to think rationally, he was clearly insane with the rest of them when he told people of past lives.

4. Just because you ACT all kind and compassionate, being kind and compassionate just to get YOURSELF a reward, is NOT really kindness and compassion. Putting on a robe and devoting your entire life to escape suffering instead of ending world hunger, makes you 100% EVIL.

5. Money or worldly possessions will not buy you happiness, but science has recently proven that the CHASE for money and worldly possessions WILL make you happy more than anything else. This disproves your beloved all-knowing guru fake.

6. Another word for meditation is "self hypnotism". Congratulations, sucker: The more real those things you experienced during meditation felt to you, the more PSYCHOTIC and WEAK-MINDED you are.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 13:55

Jeepers, what kind of cunt gets mad at Buddhists?

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 14:07

>>3
The kind that has actually spent time with them instead of having watched Kung Fu.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 14:08

well you've just got yourself to blame then, don't you

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 14:18

¡Hola! Me llamo Alejandro. Mis pasatiempos son lectura y deportes. Mis palabras favoritas son amistad, esfuerzo y victoria.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 14:32

Fail.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 14:34

>>4
I'm not blaming anyone. Just trying to make them realize just how stupid their religion is: It's just christianity painted orange.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 15:44

Failure.

You could make a list like this about any religion just as easily. Buddhism has its fair share of bullshit, but its not any worse in that regard than Christianity or Islam.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-09 17:08

>>7
at least it doesn't go on and on about one true god and shit

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-10 9:11

KARMA IS NOT A LIE. THE CAKE IS A LIE. D:<

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-10 10:27

never insult the cake, faggot

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-10 11:23

>>9
But Allah IS the one true god. You will be punished for this.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-10 11:40

Allah suxxorz

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-10 18:58

>>9
Oh YEAH?! Ever heard about Buddha? Apparently buddhism is the belief that everything that Buddha uttered was completely true, and that the entire truth begins and ends with him. To reach the same state "of enlightenment" as him, one only has to agree with everything he says and believe it. While doubting the christian god is sin, doubting Buddha is considered false. That's just fucked up. If one doesn't end up at the same conclusion as him, one is told to meditate, in other words self-hypnotize oneself into believing his shit, breaking down ones mental health. It's a scam so simple that all buddhist should be ashamed.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-10 19:05

I just hope some damned Christfags do not start thinking that this thread is about how Buddhism sucks and Christianity is true.

Name: Ikkyu 2007-11-10 21:54

Rinzai Zen school reporting in!

1. No matter how many books you read, sitting beneath a tree nearly starving yourself to death just because you've got nothing better to do, will not make you the fucking all-knowing god of emos.

2500 years ago, Siddhartha Gautama tried this, and concluded the same thing. He's the dude most Westerners think of as "the buddha." He starved himself almost to death meditating under a tree until a girl brought him some basic nourishment and he basically went "well, that got me nowhere. Check starvation and self-abuse off the list!" Like most old religions, tons of schools of followers totally overlook this.

2. No matter how much you wish it were true, life will not compensate you for your losses, nor will it punish your enemies, you whining, hateful hypocrites. Karma is a LIE.

I think of it as more of a basic cause and effect thing. It's not some cosmic force, but if you're an ass to people you're going to get the same in return. Likewise if you're kind and generous.

3. There is NO proof of rebirth, so no matter how much Buddha tells you to think rationally, he was clearly insane with the rest of them when he told people of past lives.

K. That sits pretty much exactly on par with the Zen schools' take on it AFAIK. That belief predated Buddhism and could be found (I think?) in ancient Brahman culture. Siddhartha was basically born in what we think of now as Nepal.

4. Just because you ACT all kind and compassionate, being kind and compassionate just to get YOURSELF a reward, is NOT really kindness and compassion. Putting on a robe and devoting your entire life to escape suffering instead of ending world hunger, makes you 100% EVIL.

If you act compassionate to get yourself a reward, you have failed by succombing to greed. What Buddha taught in pretty much every interpretation is that suffering is caused by desire in a very general sense. The idea is that you be compassionate because it is the best way to go through life and part of how to life as an ideal "Buddha." (In Mahayana schools, anyone can potentially be a Buddha. It's a marked distinction from normal life, but hardly a "divine being.")
So by that approach, becoming a monk and meditating to escape suffering doesn't make you evil. It is useless from a practical standpoint though, and that bothers me too.

5. Money or worldly possessions will not buy you happiness, but science has recently proven that the CHASE for money and worldly possessions WILL make you happy more than anything else. This disproves your beloved all-knowing guru fake.

Show proof that this applies universally, or even that there was such a study. Countless millions are happy to live humbly within their means.

6. Another word for meditation is "self hypnotism". Congratulations, sucker: The more real those things you experienced during meditation felt to you, the more PSYCHOTIC and WEAK-MINDED you are.

You've proven you know nothing about meditation. There are countless types, but generally it is a focused attention on something. This can be hypnotic in nature. In Zen schools (again, because I'm not an expert on the others) it is a matter of emptying your head of distractions and keeping your attention focused on awareness of all that you sense internally and externally. Keeping focused on this and not getting lost in a distraction or errant thought takes years of practice and discipline, but by even dabbling in it, you will find your ability to willfully focus your concentration on things in daily life greatly improves. So by that token, you are exactly and absolutely wrong.


I'll be listening in for the next day or two for replies so I'll gladly take intelligent questions that aren't outright attacks. Again, I'm from a mostly Rinzai Zen background and there are schools of Buddhism I think are totally out there, but hey, whatever works for each person I suppose...

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-11 9:59


1. I've heard that this is where he uttered "I am not a man. I am a buddha." to the first follower, but fine, if sitting under that tree wasn't the feat that made him find "the truth", what was? What made him (or anyone for that matter) think that he knew more than anyone else? Him telling gullible people things they'd like to believe in? Madonna had the decency to make people a couple of music videos to achieve stardom, but Buddha never did anything to prove him the birthright to become an all-knowing guru. One day he just claimed to be one.

2. If karma isn't a cosmic force, then "be nice to others and they'll PROBABLY be nice to you" isn't that much of a concept. Buddhists treat this like it's DESTINY - that compassionate people are less likely to get into car accidents, and that karma is the only essence that is transmitted to the next reincarnation. This kind of thinking, that "those I hate will SURELY be hurt in the end, SOMEhow", isn't common sense - it's a comforting thought to hateful people who'd like people to suffer. The same goes for people who comfort themselves with the idea of themselves being awarded for their own suffering. Karma is common sense stretched into wishful thinking on a rediculous scale. If this is abusing the concept of karma, the abuse is very common of buddhists.

3. How can one be buddhist if one doesn't believe in rebirth? I've heard that this belief is THE most fundamental requirement to call oneself a buddhist, because the whole point of buddhism is to get out of the rebirth cycle. For instance, without it the whole "eigthfold path" code of life falls asunder, as there would be no reason to do as Buddha ells you.

4. If the desire to end rebirth or be enlightened will make it impossible for one to end rebirth or become enlightened, then this means that buddhists (meaning people who TRY to live according to the eightfold path) are the people who have FAILED to be like Buddha. In telling people this path, Buddha seems to have seduced his listeners TO suffering.

If Buddha wasn't an all-knowing divine being, how come buddhists told me that Buddha never spoke anything but truth, and didn't leave anything unsaid? How come any other opinion than Buddhas opinion is expressly forbidden on E-sangha - the largest buddhist board - and that these are considered "wrong" even when voiced as personal opinions? This implies that in order to become a buddha, one must agree with everything that Buddha said, including his talk about rebirth, making it plain idol worship: "Agree with anything that Bono says, and you'll be as great as him."

Becoming a monk means a life of devotion to oneself. While perhaps not evil, that has to be at least selfish.

5. I'd love to know which study too, but unfortunately the TV news doesn't specify its sources. While settling for less doesn't necessarily make you miserable, the study shows craving more makes you even happier. It may seem strange to desire more than the numerous inanimate objects in nature, but perhaps that's what make humans tick and survive evolution.

6. Trying to be aware of everything, is a typical example of overloading ones awareness/senses. If you even invite things such as koans (with premises such as certain wise men being wise) while overloading, the koan will bypass your will (while its caught up in the distraction of trying to be aware). Hypnotism will also make you concentrate better, as it rids you of doubt.

Thank you for taking your time.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-11 10:39

Jesus > Buddha

Buddha was gay and sucked loli cocks.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-11 11:55

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Name: Anonymous 2007-11-11 14:54

>>5
ARE YOU CHALLENGING ME?!

Name: Ikkyu 2007-11-11 15:19

Hey guys, standard disclaimer again, Rinzai Zen, mileage may vary, etc...

1. I've heard that this is where he uttered "I am not a man. I am a buddha." to the first follower, but fine, if sitting under that tree wasn't the feat that made him find "the truth", what was? What made him (or anyone for that matter) think that he knew more than anyone else? Him telling gullible people things they'd like to believe in? Madonna had the decency to make people a couple of music videos to achieve stardom, but Buddha never did anything to prove him the birthright to become an all-knowing guru. One day he just claimed to be one.

Legend has it that he was sitting under a tree meditating. At that point he had stopped abusing himself with neglect though and started eating again, disgusting his followers who mostly left. I think of this "meditation" as pondering the plight of the sick, wounded, old, poor, and dead as these are the things that drove him out to become an ascetic.

2. If karma isn't a cosmic force, then "be nice to others and they'll PROBABLY be nice to you" isn't that much of a concept. Buddhists treat this like it's DESTINY - that compassionate people are less likely to get into car accidents, and that karma is the only essence that is transmitted to the next reincarnation. This kind of thinking, that "those I hate will SURELY be hurt in the end, SOMEhow", isn't common sense - it's a comforting thought to hateful people who'd like people to suffer. The same goes for people who comfort themselves with the idea of themselves being awarded for their own suffering. Karma is common sense stretched into wishful thinking on a rediculous scale. If this is abusing the concept of karma, the abuse is very common of buddhists.

It may be, I'm not sure. It is however very common of people in the "Western world." Karma is not supposed to be a punishment and reward system, but more of a cause and effect. To some, it's caused by divine intervention, to others it's simply how things play out most of the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
Thinking "oh, he'll get his! heheh" is the same as a Christian smugly saying "well THAT sinner is going to hell!" That is, like you said, malicious and missing the point as neither one is supposed to judge people. But you know people... judging is what they do when left to their own devices... (Serves a great purpose for evolution, it's just a bit pointless used on people who aren't going to affect you...)

>3. How can one be buddhist if one doesn't believe in rebirth? I've heard that this belief is THE most fundamental requirement to call oneself a buddhist, because the whole point of buddhism is to get out of the rebirth cycle. For instance, without it the whole "eigthfold path" code of life falls asunder, as there would be no reason to do as Buddha ells you.

There are a shocking number of Buddhist schools. To be honest, Zen is somewhat heretical as they go, and I bet you will even find Zen schools that believe in rebirth. It's fairly common in Buddhism, but not universal.

The eightfold path consists of (Wikipedia):
Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajñā, Pāli: paññā)
1. Right view
2. Right intention
Ethical conduct (Sanskrit: śīla, Pāli: sīla)
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
Mental discipline (Sanskrit and Pāli: samādhi)
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration

This is mostly aimed at eliminating "Dukkha" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha ) and is the answer to the Four Noble Truths:

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html

Actually since so little of it is hard and fast rules, one could even see "rebirth" as the reintroduction of the concept of self to someone who had already relinquished it. Elimination of self is a very hard to understand topic, so I'll just sum it up as ridding yourself of all of what you think is you - "I like ____", "I know ____", "I'm good at ____", "I can't ___" etc, and simply being as you are. In some people there is a huge difference in perceived and actual self, which I don't think is healthy personally...

I had a very hard time understanding this concept from the various esoterically written riddles scriptures and once thought it was impossible to destroy one's self-concept until I realized it was much less drastic than it sounded. Actually living without letting preconceptions creep back in - now that is the hard part - one of the things that separates someone who is "enlightened" from one who is "awakened" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensho)

I would be closer to the latter, having seen the nature of things but not living by all the rules and ways of a buddha. (There I go self-categorizing! I lose, haha.) I am relatively undesirous for a layman though, and honestly feel no urgency to continue enlightenment; if it comes, it comes.

...

Name: Ikkyu 2007-11-11 15:20

...

>4. If the desire to end rebirth or be enlightened will make it impossible for one to end rebirth or become enlightened, then this means that buddhists (meaning people who TRY to live according to the eightfold path) are the people who have FAILED to be like Buddha. In telling people this path, Buddha seems to have seduced his listeners TO suffering.

I've considered the same thing, and it's kind of sad. Many people define themselves by how much they want enlightenment and in doing so, they are consumed by desire for it. Then, going through all the steps and practices becomes hollow. I believe most buddhist practices serve to make the mind into "fertile ground for enlightenment" but these guys get tunnel vision and just want to get through it and reach the goal. Clearly this was not the intention, but if you tell a desirous person "I will show you how to stop suffering" I guess that's what you often get...

Like I mentioned above, I don't claim to be fully enlightened or anything, but my way in was basically that I wanted to understand Buddhism (after studying various other religions of interest,) so I studied it up and down, followed crazy leads to tangents, pondered the meaning of koans... found it all very interesting but hard to crack, then went on with my life. Then one day it kind of sunk in how absolutely all things are changing constantly if subtlely, and even if it takes a million years, eventually things will be reduced to dust and debris in the vastness of space. All of my loved ones, any and all of my toys, diversions, and creature comforts could at any time be lost for good, so it would be wise not to become too attached to them. It kind of clicked there and my world view was shifted in perpetuity thus far. I surround myself with diversions and comforts unbecoming of a devout buddhist, but when I lose them - for example a few big hard drive crashes, a stolen motorcycle, and this week I lost a keyword database of about 17,000 pictures on my hard drive - I'm shocked, then sad for a short time, then I simply move on because to dwell on it would be to become trapped in the desire to have it all back and unless I can do something about it, that would be counterproductive. In my interpretation of Zen non-attachment, you should be fully aware and present for these feelings of loss as they're only natural, but then let them go because they've been addressed and letting them cling is a distraction.

>If Buddha wasn't an all-knowing divine being, how come buddhists told me that Buddha never spoke anything but truth, and didn't leave anything unsaid? How come any other opinion than Buddhas opinion is expressly forbidden on E-sangha - the largest buddhist board - and that these are considered "wrong" even when voiced as personal opinions? This implies that in order to become a buddha, one must agree with everything that Buddha said, including his talk about rebirth, making it plain idol worship: "Agree with anything that Bono says, and you'll be as great as him."

The scriptures (of which no official collection exists! ha!) largely speak of absolute truth and infinite compassion, etc. They are also (all?) written after Siddhartha's death, much like the bulk of the Christian bible I think. Some of them have buddha addressing assemblies of gods and teaching them as well. I think this is not literal, but illustrative. Many of the more esoteric and bizarre of them also would make more sense when taken in the context of (ancient?) Hinduism. There wasn't much to be said for religious purity back then, and Buddhism picks up some interesting stuff as it moves East across Asia. In a nutshell, Zen is the result of Buddhism being born around Brahmanism, moving through India in Buddhist and Hindu form, then bouncing off China, dropping much Hinduism and picking up some Tao, before settling in Japan and being further whittled down to Zen. The real story is much more complicated though.

So that explains the absolute truth angle of it, but not being questionable? That is crap... one of the things I appreciated was the willingness to be questioned I found. As I studied, I found many places where questioning was invited, but I can't find a good link that isn't an academic paper on early buddhism so again it could be just that I adhere to one of hundreds of niche schools of buddhism that does it this way... This is a very good article on secular buddhism that also addresses point 3 well: http://home.elp.rr.com/helmling/nonfict/buddha.htm

I will say this though - I don't mean to be preachy by posting all this info up here, but instead just to clarify misconceptions. DO NOT take buddhist teachings for granted, but if you find yourself interested, simply give them fair consideration as to how they may apply to you... I'm someone who would happily classify himself an atheist, but buddhism didn't require me to change that, and I found all too often that I agreed with the teachings on a philosophical and logical level so I took the label. That is also why I'm not the model image of devotion here...

>Becoming a monk means a life of devotion to oneself. While perhaps not evil, that has to be at least selfish.

Yep. In many cases I'd agree, though I'd respect them as experts in their field with more spiritual and meditative experience than I. It does seem like a cop out to just devote ones life to meditating and begging for alms though. (Again, not all do. I like Hyakujo (aka Baizhang Huaihai's) approach - http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=83 He was one of the very earliest Zen masters)

>5. I'd love to know which study too, but unfortunately the TV news doesn't specify its sources. While settling for less doesn't necessarily make you miserable, the study shows craving more makes you even happier. It may seem strange to desire more than the numerous inanimate objects in nature, but perhaps that's what make humans tick and survive evolution.

Agreed. I just doubt the universality of it. The crux of Buddhism is that this can be transcended AND happiness found in doing so, as has been going on formally recognized as such for over two millenia. Not that wanting and seeking aren't thrilling, but it's not the only way; and as they say, "money can't buy happiness." If you're always left wanting, you always have a hollow spot that is never filled... This concept is sometimes referred to as "hungry ghosts."

>6. Trying to be aware of everything, is a typical example of overloading ones awareness/senses. If you even invite things such as koans (with premises such as certain wise men being wise) while overloading, the koan will bypass your will (while its caught up in the distraction of trying to be aware). Hypnotism will also make you concentrate better, as it rids you of doubt.

Good things to be aware of, but still not quite accurate. If you are overwhelmed by Zen meditation, you are trying to hard and thinking too much. In reality, mental focus shifts subconciously like the point of focus of your eyes (saccades.) When I meditate, I am not so overwhelmed with sensory data that I zone out, but once I stop thinking on whims and tangents and running my brain over little things that don't matter, I start to notice things like the feeling of breathing, little bodily discomforts I'd been ignoring, the temperature of the room I'm in and any little air flows or drafts in it, the smell of the area, sounds coming from outside, how well rested I am, etc... - things that are glossed over when distracted by um... "non-zen thought?" It is refreshing, like having a fog lifted from my head, and is literally expanding my sphere of awareness as I am aware of much more of my surroundings than usual, but the only profound realizations that come of it occur when - without all the normal inhibitions and clutter in my mind - a thought arises and I'm able to deal with it freely without mental inhibition. I'm not really more suggestable to anything unless I'm already predisposed to think that way without all my personality constructs and tatemae getting in the way. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatemae sorry for all the links. It's really hard to explain something like this in plain language which is why so many writings on the subject are cryptic and bizarre...)

But really, without being able to grab your brain and stick it in a meditative state for you, I don't know what would convince you this isn't just religious nut babblings... that's the rub. THIS form of meditation is literally the opposite of hypnotism and self deception. You are supposed to be fully present in the current moment, not thinking about other distractions, not zoning out and slipping into an "altered state," but instead... as close as possible to absolute sobriety. That is one reason it is so invigorating - you concentrate on the present moment (as it passes to the next...) as though your life depended on it and do not accept boredom. You do not accept doubt either, but likewise of any koans and teachings - those are not "now" and are also left behind. What you see is what you get. Like I said, if you practice this, it greatly benefits mental discipline and concentration, as well as awareness in daily life even if you take it without a single buddhist concept attached. If you want to try this it is important to remember that the human mind DOES get sidetracked habitually and that's no reason to get mad at it, simply shrug off a thought if it is superfluous and move on without returning to it. If it IS important, deal with it with full concentration and then move on.


I'll end this epically long post by saying that I won't have time to cite sources and dig up articles like this again this week, but Gil Fronsdal has a real gift for explaining Zen concepts in plain English in a way that a Western audience can relate to it. http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-gil.html

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-11 15:26

>>24
tl;dr

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-11 16:16

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Name: Anonymous 2007-11-12 15:10



1. Still, this starving oneself doesn't raise someone above all doubt. If anything, given how starvation affects the brain, that should make him LESS credible. I can't see how people would believe in someones ideas just because he starved himself for awhile.

2. Reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Buddhism I can't really see how this "cause and effect" differs from a western system of punishment and reward. It is common practice on E-sangha to bring up some wrongdoing in the news, assure one another that this guy will surely get what he deserves, and at best pretentiously "feel sorry" for him before moving on. This is simply transfering ones anger into taking comfort in glee. There really isn't any other reason (than glee or comfort) to believe in a "justice" system which otherwise is completely impossible to prove.

3-4. If even rebirth is allowed to be doubted (and even denied) in certain buddhist schools, I guess E-Sanghas strife to "maintain a high quality" is just their way of refining fanatic excrement and calling it "buddhism".

However, while one would think that monks possess more spiritual experience, I read the complaint of a monk who was apalled for the state of the temples he had visited, where monks just participated in a slave-master relationship, to serve the cravings of who had been there the longest. Since, I believe that monks are just buddhists in orange clothes. The rest they will have to earn.

5. Well I don't think that you can go after just "what has been formally recognized for over two millenia", because this goes for ALL religions. Foolishness over time really doesn't impress me as much as it used to. I would really like to know if they included "awakening" as an alternative in the study, but at least now one has to doubt the words of Buddha that desire equals suffering. I think when Buddha left the comforts of his palace, living BECAME suffering to him, because instead of wanting even more, he had to settle for less, leaving a hole in HIM. Sure, if one would CRAVE even MORE happiness than one gets from craving itself, then they're welcome to try, but then the whole buddhist thing becomes a pleasure-trip. Granted, I don't believe in hungry ghosts (in this way).

6. It's just that your desires, and especially the construct of your personality, is what blocks suggestions. You may find this suggestive state beneficial, but it still prevents you from going: "Hey, wait-a-minute: This Hyakujō guy is clearly just full of shit. Talking foxes? I mean come on! Who does he think he's fooling here?" You just accept these things as they bypass the systems you turn off to meditate. I don't think that we will be able to convince eachother on this point, though.

I don't think that you need to dig up articles (unless there's some obscured koan that I haven't yet solved). I've spent years in your school, and I have to say that Zen is the sanest form of buddhism I've encountered. It's just that I come from E-sangha, where all these doubts and false portrayals of buddhism has been bottling up on me.

Namaste. :)

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-12 19:25

1. True!

2. Karma is neutral. It is each person who labels events good or bad according to their own desires.

3. Where does a wave go after it breaks?

4. So long as you act with kindness and compassion to others where is the harm in wanting to gain the reward of kindness and compassion for yourself? If selfish people acted in a kind and compassionate way (as much as they are able to) then maybe they would have the chance to learn what it is like to be truely kind and compassionate.

5. There is no doubt that the chase for things and the having of things is fun. I have twice gained a great deal of satisfaction from buying and owning motorbikes. Unfortunatly I've had to sell my current bike and stop riding (and if you are into bikes you know how much that hurts!). Things cause you suffering when you get too attached to them. Dedicating too much time to the pursuit of things can make you selfish and cause you to suffer when you enevitably loose them.

If you chase compassion and kindness towards others you will gain something that you will not loose (if you hold on to it as tightly as you hold on to your most prized material posessions) and will give you happiness for your whole life.

6. Meditation can be used to reinforce negative states of mind as well as positive states of mind. If you hate someone a little bit and then you think about how much you hate them day and night you will end up with a big grudge against them.
If you have only a little bit of compassion for others but meditate on it day and night you will end up with lots of compassion for others. Meditation is a garbage-in-garbage-out type process and so you are correct in saying it is possible to delude yourself via meditation.

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-12 19:36

My karma ran over your dogma

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-12 19:50

>>29

I hope you were kind enough to clean it up!

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-13 0:30

>>27

So does that mean you think the people who are happy not craving worldly wealth are simply lying and miserable?

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-13 6:19


2. Yes, but even if karma is neutral, one has to ask the question why someone would choose to believe in this concept, and why it would appeal to people. Glee would be the only answer, defending ones desire for it with karma itself being neutral. It's the emotional coverup that is the source for this "inner peace" thing that buddhist only SEEMS to master.


3. It doesn't go anywhere. It ceases to exist. That is as far as the comparison to the soul will take you. While the wave breaks up into water particles that can form another wave, memories of the fruits of ones actions doesn't have the power to reform into another soul. At most you will be remembered for brief while, but if memories and fruits counted, Hitler would have a really long life, so why claim the rebirth depends on the nature or your actions? Death has terrified people since the dawn of man, but reincarnation is just an illusion - it's not a real escape.

Also, in order to really call it "reincarnation", the wave would have to reform into the SAME wave again, which would be just as possible as the molecules you consist of would spontaneously reassembling again SOMEwhere in time and space.


4. The difference between playing kind and compassionate for a reward, and actually being it, is as big as Bruce Willis not really being John McClane. Without any motive to change, the only thing that you can teach selfish people is to decieve people that you are nice, which is what most selfish people does anyway. The shallow play that this behavior results in, will lack understanding, strength, and often actual substance (as in actual help). It would result in that guide in that Portal game: Kind but not really.


5. A shorter excercise in letting things you lose go, would probably suffice. You can hunt things without the assumption that you will keep them forever, without having to resort to buddhism. There is a saying that goes: "It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all."

If you are looking for a source of CONSTANT happiness, I'd go with sociopathy. Letting the troubles of people go can really give you peace of mind, probably much more than taking them on will, and it's deemed "incurable" too.

...but other religions can help just as well. Why not believe in the flying spaghetti monster, confident that it will take care of all your enemies and afterlife as well? It may not be true, but this delusion will make you happy for as long as you live.

Also, I don't think that buddhism teaches more than a cheap imitation of compassion compared to taoism.


6. Hypnotism is used to cure emotional problems pretty regularly, so I'm not saying that it's inherently destructive, but that it just can't be trusted as confirmation of achieving any higher states of consciousness what-so-ever: You may firmly believe that you are, because you are in a halucinating state.


Name: Anonymous 2007-11-13 6:42

Name: Anonymous 2007-11-13 6:52

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