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Sakuga Thread #1

Name: Anonymous 2010-12-08 8:47

So here's an attempt at to get some long term Sakuga discussion going here.

Some Links:
The Sakuga Wiki [JP] - http://www18.atwiki.jp/sakuga/
ANN - http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/

English Sakuga Blogs:
http://aninomiyako.wordpress.com/
http://www.pelleas.net/aniTOP/

English Sakuga Twitters:
http://twitter.com/raito_kun
http://twitter.com/Duune99
http://twitter.com/kyouray
http://twitter.com/catsuka

To start things off, here's a Summer Wars MAD with Key animator's listed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpoHxWV3IG0

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-24 14:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__woRjys9DA
http://bullet-violetta.blogspot.com/

An independent animation project by a mysterious animator.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-24 20:35

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-24 22:48

BASARA者!戦国BASARA弐 椛島洋介原画集
http://www.toranoana.jp/mailorder/article/04/0010/26/40/040010264026.html

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-25 21:14

Episode 21 of SRW OG that aired today had a lot of staff on it.
I saw a streaming raw of it and there are some really good scenes near the start of it. Will wait until Sunday to check it out completely.

This episode a lot of staff members on it, they had 2 Character ADs, 3 Mecha ADs and 4 more Assistant ADs for the Character animation. They have listed 33 key animators, including Obari Masami and Yamane Masahiro. The usual amount for an SRWOG ep lately has been about 20-25, though the first episode only had 9. And stayed at about 10-15 for the first several episodes. A quick browse of 2ch said the episode had some really good production overall.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 10:25

Here's a question, when people say "Animation Director" what kind of job does that exactly mean in terms of anime production?

The scriptwriter sets out the story, dialogue and other setting information with the Director. The storyboard artist then draws out how he/she would envision the scene to play out based on the script, again with the Director on hand.

But what does the Animation Director then do? Do they tell the Key Animators how to draw a scene? How many frames to use? What kind of shading, level of detail? Do they draw any animation themselves? What's the difference between, say having Yutaka Nakamura as an Animation Director vs some hired Korean Animation Director.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 10:46

>>325
Copy-paste from
From http://www.pelleas.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=238


In credits, sakkan is usually translated into English as animation director, and that is good enough for the general animation fan. However, his job is quite different from that of animation director in an American production. In many cases, ideally, the sakkan is also the character designer.

Sakkan is short for Sakuga Kantoku, which literally means "work-drawing director". If I can be allowed a bit of leeway in interpreting the term, when I say "work-drawing", I might compare it to the term "workprint" in general filmmaking,. That is, an artifact of production which is not the finished product, but a stage of the work-in-progress that is never seen by the audience.

In Japan, the layouts are usually drawn by the same animators who will eventually be animating the scene. The layouts are handed in and go through a series of checks- once by the director, then by the sakkan. The sakkan at this stage makes any corrections in composition, posing and perspective, then the scene is sent back to the animator.

When the key animation drawings, the genga, are done, they go through a second series of checks-- the director looks at them, makes notes, then it goes back again to the sakkan for correction.
This is what the sakkan does: after flipping the drawings to decide what needs to be corrected, he pegs the first piece of genga on his desk, then pegs a blank colored (usually yellow) sheet over it He picks out the problem areas and draws over them with a clean line, making sure his new lines dovetail into the shapes of the usable parts of the genga. He places the next drawing down and repeats the process until he has corrected the entire stack. The trick is in making sure that the original parts work with the corrected parts, but also to make sure that the corrected parts also work between themselves. It's a bit like playing 3-dimensional chess.

The colored paper identifies the sakkan's work immediately. It is up to the douga (inbetweener) to combine the sakkan's lines with the usable parts of the genga onto one final, cleaned up sheet. I have seen cases where there are multiple sakkans on a project and a chief sakkan (or director) might make additional corrections (on yet another different color paper) on a sakkan's corrections over a piece of genga. On projects where robots or vehicles are featured prominently, there may be a separate sakkan that specializes in that (mecha sakkan). Sometimes, if the original genga is completely unusable, the sakkan redraws every piece of genga himself. The highly skilled ones are able to do this without any roughs of their own, in a sense, using the bad genga as the preliminary draft and drawing perfectly clean key animation in one pass. The genga is usually not sent back to the animator unless he has totally misinterpreted the scene. It is usually faster for the sakkan to simply redo it than call for a retake.

In any given studio, there is usually a small handfull of very talented animators and lots of mediocre ones. The sakkan system enables the studio to maximize the output of their best artists while allowing the average artists to do most of the grunt work. Most of the hours that go into animating a scene happen at the beginning, as the animator has to work out technical matters such as cel levels, camera instructions, perspective, and registering elements to the background.
By using the sakkan's skills only where they are needed most, the studio can give every scene the same degree of polish without having to waste the sakkan's time on drudgery.

Having said that, the sakkan's job is the most stressfull and demanding of anyone's on the crew. An ordinary scene can not usually be made excellent with a last-minute fix. A sakkan's effort salvages animation that would otherwise be unacceptable, or bring substandard work at least to a level on par with the rest of the work. That is why his job is so frustrating. A sakkan is usually skilled enough to be able to produce excellence if allowed to simply animate from scratch. However, he must spend his time trying to redeem the failures of lesser artists. It takes a very special type of personality to make a good sakkan. I doubt many American animators would have the temperament. Not because of any lack of skill, but because it would drive them crazy.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 13:20

>>326
Very interesting, those forums have a lot of information on the production process.

Though I then have another question: Shouldn't inbetween artists be given more focus? As they are the ones who end up making the drawings move. The Key Animators only drawn still images, it is up to the inbetweeners to bring those drawings to life.

One could argue without the Key Animator's drawings, and inbetweener can't do anything, but at the same time, without any good inbetweeners you'll just get a lot of still frames jumping from one to another..

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 17:16

Imaishi partying and headbanging in a rave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TVfI9UO19I

LIVIN' THE DREAM

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 18:24

>>326

Awesome, thanks!

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 18:34

This thread was translated on a Japanese blog

http://animeng.blog5.fc2.com/blog-entry-616.html

One of the comments:
2chの作画スレッドは分らないんだが
4chanのは合理的な議論がされてるんだな

おもしろい

________________
I can't follow 2ch's sakuga thread, but 4chan's has rational discussion.

Interesting.


( ^_^)o自自o(^_^ )

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 19:18

Does anyone know talented independent sakuga animators outside of the anime industry?

I mean there must be some very good animators out there who haven't worked on animes yet. Or are all good animators in anime studios?

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 19:54

>>331
You mean independent artists? I believe most of them often start out as gif animators, I know some of them like Ryo-chimo, Shingo Yamashita and Kenichi Kutsuna started as gif animators. Most of the time they'll get picked up by a studio or a director and they'll nurture their talent under their wing.

I don' really know or follow any, but I've ran into one or two:
Girl chasing boy through ruined streets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=034gA9EfOrc

Girl beating up her dad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG9Y4WXBphM

Some kung fu action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXBE3F7APGo

Not Sure what this even is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_hJsJ-pAvQ

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-26 19:55

>>330
Do the other comments say anything?
The last time we ran into some Japanese posters... well just scroll up the thread to see the result.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 1:03

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 3:55

Unit Director/Storyboard/Character Design/Animation Director:Yoshiji Kigami
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRza13Rcz8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6zVkJhW0xM

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 5:20

>>335
Is that produced by KyoAni?
Or Kigami did that for another studio?

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 7:13

talking about "independent" gif-animators,
I think this dude is a nice example too:

Bahi JD
http://bahijd.wordpress.com/gif-animation/

He is not japanese, some kind of an iranian student who lives in austria or something, but I think his goal is to work as key-animator in Japan.


That's totally my favourite work, SHITHEAD ACTION
A boy fights a tentacle monster
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/272/a/d/SHITHEAD_ACTION_gif_animation_by_bahijd.gif

It's impressive that he is only 18 or 19.
He is also a good illustrator actually

http://drawr.net/bahi
http://bahijd.deviantart.com/#/d2nvcyx


I would love to see this guy animating for some anime movies someday.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 8:24

>>327
Considering that most of the best key animators draw all the drawings themselves, I think the industry still considers them as mainly good for grunt work.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 10:59

>>327
Actually the key frames alone do already make for a moving scene, just a little jumpy one, key frames are usually the ones which mark the end of a move, inbetweens are basically there only to smooth the whole thing. You can take a look at the Noein or Xam'd or Gurren Lagann cuts that were posted all over the web to get the idea how much animation there is just going by key frames. Also, many of the "high profile" animators do animate whole cuts including inbetweens, some even colour and add effects by themselves, think of the Yoshinari brothers.

So yeah, inbetweeners do really only trace the key frames with little changes to them, of course it is important work that they do but they are not artists, they trace stuff, they don't think stuff up or draw stuff from scratch by themselves. If you are interested in some more insight on inbetweeners you can watch the Mononoke Hime making-of documentary, it had even a few inbetweeners at Ghibli taking a test to become key animators (none of them made it because Miyazaki is really harsh in that regard).

Not sure whether anybody posted that already, but here we go:
http://www.youtube.com/user/riezbien#p/c/E3845EB8EFD16E55/0/fi3LRn7EKx8

Note, although it was made when cel animation was still used, most of the stuff still applies today bar the filming, nowadays it's composition work on PC and no filming of cels anymore.

Anyway, it gives quite a good insight on all important positions during the making of an anime and should be a must watch for anybody who's interested in that.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 12:34

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 14:41

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DINdwHHG0T4
Who animated 0:20 - 0:24?

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 14:56

>>341
Two of Japan's most skilled animators worked on that OP (Shinji Hashimoto and Shinya Ohira).

That said, the sequence you're talking about was most likely done by Hashimoto.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 15:04

>>341
Konishi Kenichi

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-27 16:57

>>341
Other people who worked on that OP are Norio Matsumoto and Osamu Tanabe. Ohira was the director.

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-28 3:34

Art of Panty and Stocking vol. 1
http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=196929

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-28 11:28

Panty and Stocking Art DDL: http://www.multiupload.com/DMTO6C4GGK

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-28 14:13

That Bahi JD's animation works are very interesting! Thanks for the links!

Are you sure he is not professional?

I mean looking at those, I can compare him with animators like Shingo Yamashita.

One word: CRAZY!

Name: Anonymous 2011-02-28 14:32

>>347
Nah, man. He's just a very very talented guy who's just as crazy about animation as we are. His work at this early stage is insanely good, and I'd be interested if he does go pro. I also see some definite Yoshinari/Imaishi influences--I think there's even a little hint of Iso in there.

If he can make it into the difficult world of Japanese anime, then I'm all up for it.

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 2:10

>>333

Yeah, there's been a lot of comments, and the translation has appeared on several blogs now.

There seems to have been a bit of argument over whether we had the right definition of 'sakuga', but that turned into more of a discussion with people offering their own definitions of the term. There was also a comment about being baffled by the claim about a Working scene being rotoscoped, which I already correct in an earlier post.(>>154)

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 2:11

But unfortunately it wasn't translated that far..

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 6:38

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 8:24

I remember some portions of Clannad were really well animated, the other world parts I believe. However its almost like it was TOO well animated, like it looked really bizarre. As if Kyoani were using too many frames to portray too little movement. The way everything moved just looked really weird, especially the way the girl's hair moved, everything was way too smooth. Are there any other cuts in anime that are....over-animated I guess?

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 8:24

just found a very interesting tweet here by "Yotube",
I actually founf it through bahi JD's twitter, he retweetet that,

http://twitter.com/bahijd/status/42571680190693376
SUSHIO new SAKUGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA6VKtAPjBs

Interesting, I think I should follow Yotube/Naoki Yoshibe,

Cool! He is also an inedependent animator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aozYdf72z8U

Reminds me to Mind Game.

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 8:26

>>352
Kamichu has some of those. I like to think it's just one of Tetsuya Takeuchi's idiosyncracies, but I don't know his style that well to be sure.

Even Fractale has some cuts like that, I think.

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 9:15

>>352
Personally I really enjoyed the other world sequences in Clannad. I hate all the shortcuts Japanese animation usually takes for casual movement, so going it the other way was really nice for a change.
 
Anyway, I guess the closest would be the infamous dinner scene in Nanoha 1 as well as the following running scene, well I guess many if not all of Yoshinari Kou's cuts are like that since he does everything himself, also particularly seen in White Album. And yeah, there's also Kamichu which had many on 2s (some on 1s even?) scenes for really mundane things. I remember reading complaints back when it aired that it's overdone. Really can't understand such comments, same for Nanoha, a particularly sweet and natural scene of a family dinner.

Anyway, for some other stuff. Numata's Kannagi 2 also had something like that, and some of the animation was removed for DVD release (prolly to save on the costs). Generally Numata does a lot of stuff like that, there's also the infamous out-of-synch sequence in Higurashi (13?) and more. Wada Takaaki is another animator famous for using many frames, in particular the shopping mall scene in the "Cyberteam in Akihabara" film was really lively with everything over the place moving the whole time. Part of said scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1iS4OBNqFU#t=2m37s

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 10:16

>>355
Shinji Otsuka is one of the best at that kind of delicate yet lively character animation.

His many cuts in Tokyo Godfathers were incredible, and I also remember his quite signature cut in Only Yesterday.

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 11:48

http://www.jamievickers.blogspot.com/

Jamie Vickers' blog, with shots of his many parts in anime(Kaiba, Genius Party, Tokyo Tribe 2). He's one of the few foreign animators currently active in Japan today, and he's also one of the foreigners tapped by Yuasa for his past shows(alongside Choi Eunyoung). I think he's also the only American in the industry today, but I might be wrong.

BahiJD needs to follow this guy's footsteps.

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 11:50

>>357
>he's also the only American in the industry today

Ah shit, I forgot about Michael Arias...

Name: Bahi JD 2011-03-01 14:04

>BahiJD needs to follow this guy's footsteps.

XD Bahi JD's is going his own way.

__

LOL By the way, I'm following this thread since the beginning.

I'm really amazed how many time I've been mentioned here.
This makes me really glad!
Thanks to those people who posted my works here and everyone else for watching them.

_
And some people said that I probably want to be key-animator in japan someday. It's true, I really love animation/sakuga.
Even if it's pretty hard to work as animator in japan, It's not about the money, more about the passion for animation.
But still, a regular animators life can be pretty hard and unfair in japan.

_
I'm working on an independent animated short film right now,
but it's gonna take some while to finish it.

_
Keep posting sakuga stuff here, I'm really glad there are so many people around the world who are interested in sakuga and animation.

Best regards,
Bahi JD

Name: Anonymous 2011-03-01 14:46

>>359
Dude, you are really talented. The environment in the Japanese anime industry is pretty harsh, from what I've heard/read, but since you're crazy and devoted enough to animation, then you can make it. And like I said, you are pretty damn good. Toshiyuki Inoue himself succeeded on his own through pure passion.

>I'm working on an independent animated short film right now

Cool beans. I think I'm not the only one here who'd like to see that someday.

Keep it up, man.

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