How do Japanese females view anime?

American media tends to portray females as strong willed, goal minded, intelligent people.  While anime does this as well, there tends to be an emphasis on characters driven by emotions.

How do females in Japan view representations of females in anime?  In other words, what seems "off" or "wrong" about a certain female portrayal, and what seems accurate?  What do females in Japan criticize or feel offended by with character representations. 

For example, a shy, narrow minded, ditzy girl might seem "sexist" in the US, but would simply be one of any number of personalities in anime.  Other examples include girls that are overly enthusiastic, overly emotional, overly shy, naive, innocent, hyper, etc.

Do Japanese females prefer certain types of personalities, or wish females were represented in different ways than they currently are?    

japan is oldschool sexist to the max, welcome to earth

what was your question again?

My japanese teacher was talking about that recently, she says; you gotta act like these stereotype shy or overly emotional anime girls if you ever want to get married.

She does not and is still searching for a husband XD

Hear hear, it's sad but true.

As you know it, feminism has made the great achivement in America, maybe the most successful feminism country in the world. But American feminism was ended in failure in Japan. The American feminism looks like it says "men and women are equal", but actually the concept is "women must become men". America has least "history", so American women were naturally able to accept to abondon their "pride of woman" and act just same as men.
Japanese feminist tried to import this American feminism. At the begining, they got an enthusiastic welcome, but soon Japanese women found how absurd it was. It's true that women who can mimic men's way should get the sexual equality. But how about who want to be feminine, in another words, who don't want to lose the women's pride and mimic men's way? America successed to establish the common sence of "the way of people is the men's way" without noticing it. Japanese women noticed it by instinct, and objected it. That's one of the reason Japanese feminism couldn't bring it's ideal results.

"American media tends to portray females as strong willed, goal minded, intelligent people. "  Hmm, the fact paradoxically shows women who are not abler than men are not portrayed in media. This is what we says "reverse sexual discrimination".

I watch many Hollywood films and I always feel that they are contaminated by the reverse disctimination. I hardly find the heroine who is very feminine as well as heroic like Saler Moon. "Cat Woman" and "Saler Moon" are completely different at heart. Do you get what I mean?

Talking about anime, I think the portrayals are two way. Those who act "shy, narrow minded, ditzy" but the truth is (or eventually develops to) "strong willed, goal minded, intelligent", or those who act "strong willed, goal minded, intelligent", but who sometimes show their "shy, narrow minded, ditzy" side.
Two different mental sides is the basic of anime's character deelopment.

>3
lol. It just shows she is loser. She place the blame for her unmarriage to the problem of society, run away from the reality, and detract Japan from oversea. Don't take such a woman's words seriously.

Thanks for reading my ENGrISH.

Japan certainly is misogynistic. We socialists tend to bash America, but it does have one good quality in that it isn't particularly sexist (though it certainly does have some sexism). As much as I like anime, I really have little respect for Japan itself.

>>5
What do you mean "pride of woman"? Women in Japan are treated like crap. I suspect most are quite ashamed of being women. US feminism (which seems to have died as a real movement years ago) isn't about making women act like men, though. It basically is about equality.

Japan certainly is misogynistic. We socialists tend to bash America, but it does have one good quality in that it isn't particularly sexist (though it certainly does have some sexism). As much as I like anime, I really have little respect for Japan itself.

>>5
What do you mean "pride of woman"? Women in Japan are treated like crap. I suspect most are quite ashamed of being women. US feminism (which seems to have died as a real movement years ago) isn't about making women act like men, though. It basically is about equality.

>>5
I READ UR WHOLE POST AND IT WAS WORTH IT FOR THIS: "contaminated by the reverse disctimination"

LOL I'M GONNA TAKE THAT WORD BTW DISTINCTIMATION

OH, AND HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN ALL THE HENTAIS/JPORNS WITH DOMINANT FEMALES THAT COME DISPROPORTIONATELY OUT OF JAPAN.... SEXUAL-FANTASY TOPIC-CONCENTRATIONS ARE VERY TELLING OF THE PARTICULAR CULTURE

>>8

I didn't know there were any. I am aware of hentai consisting of little girls being raped.

japanese tend to be conservative in reguards to social situations.  They sugarcoat their words like crazy, it's even in the very language they speak.  Everything is naturally apologetic.

Essentially, they use media to vent.  In japan, believe it or not, the rape numbers are much much lower than in the US.  Lots of pent up "whatever" over there gets fizzled out by it.  That's why you get comics about 5th graders giving head, and loud outspoken girls who kick any guy who comes within 5 feet of her.

>>10

Actually, there's no real proof the rape rate is that low. The Japanese, as you mentioned, try hard to keep things in and sugarcoat everything in public. The rape rate simply refers to reported rape and it is not all that unbelievable that women may never admit to being raped for fear of embarrassment (It happens in the US, too)

It happens all over the world (especially in India, where women are pretty much seen as objects). You can only go by the official numbers, since noone knows the true numbers.

"...especially in India, where women are pretty much seen as objects..."

Just India?  More like THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST...
ISLAM SEZ WIMMEN SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE SHIT! LOLLERS!

Don't forget africa, or any other country that doesn't have any luxury like the western industrial nations.

http://whatever.say.jp/program/snap_shot/site/11116756114682/

>>14

It isn't the fault of a lack of luxuries, unless you subscribe to dialectic materialism and believe social conditions are determined by economic and technological progress. Japan has plenty of technology and yet is still sexist, though.

>>16
zooomj a coherent point!

the wapophiles are in denial, all they know about japan is from their cartoons

japan is something of a statistical outlier though, they were nuclear shocked/culture shocked into a culture of godless driving technology... they are the most artificial culture currently on planet earth.

they live millions ontop of eachother on tiny slivers of land, the connectivity level in japan is insane... it is above 90%
their cell and internetworks are generations ahead of ours.. and being born into that type of an environment affects mass psychology of the culture

BATSHIT INSANE, WELCOME TO UR FUTURE

>>17 needs to be confined to the psychiatric clinic.

Forget him and let's continue the discussion calmly.

>>17 needs to be confined to the psychiatric clinic.

Forget him and let's continue the discussion calmly.

>>17

Wow! You're a genius. I was thinking the exact same thing. That has got to be the single most brilliant thing I've ever read on the internet, seriously. Your analysis of hyperreality and technology is incredible. You should take up philosophy or sociology. You may have a rare talent.

>>
IM IN UR FUTURE
WATCHIN UR ANIME

A lot of early feminists, and some still today, reacted very strongly against traditional feminine lifestyles and personalities because they had felt so unsatisfied with their lives when they were forced to live up to that.

Most newer-wave feminism has tried to embrace some traditionally feminine things like motherhood (as in not having an outside career, only being a mother), sensitivity, feminine clothing and such.  The point of feminism is for women to be able to choose their own lives, to be their own people--if that means choosing to focus solely on raising children, or choosing to sew, or choosing to wear high heels and skirts, then fine.  But women should have the option to wear pants or flats, have short hair, not be mothers (or divide parenting duties with a spouse while still working their job, or have a husband who takes care of the kids, or whatever), and not be harassed because of it.

As I see it, the problem with female anime/manga/video game characters is not that characters who are stupid or shy or whatever exist, it's that almost every female character is like that.  They're almost all cute little delicate flowers, and they're usually stupid and incompetant to boot.  Most of the time if you see a female character who's physically overpowering someone, she's doing it while being tiny and girly and cute, and usually while shrieking about perverts or whatever.  There are some awesome, strong female characters who don't fit this and stand on their own, like Major Kusanagi from GitS, Maki, Kai or Sakiyama from Air Master, or Utena from Shoujo Kakumei Utena, but not enough to balance out the badly characterized sexist characters.

But yeah, Japan's pretty sexist in real life too.  Domestic violence and rape are only just beginning to be addressed as problems over there.  Most rapes aren't reported and the men aren't punished, because the woman would be too afraid to shame herself or her family, or to compromise the honor or position of the man who did it (I hear this is especially the case when girls at school are molested by teachers).

And that doesn't even begin to touch on the racism.  Whooo...

LOL AMERICAN,
YOU WONT EVER KNOW WHY.

THATS WHY YOU AMERIKANS ARE HATED BY MOST OF THE WORLD LOLOL

well let me say one thing on their racism.

they just dont want to be infected by american's "equality" so better not to talk to them at all

>>22
If all, or even most, of the girls you see in anime are like that, you need to watch some better shows.

Also, if there is an average female character, and an average male character, the female SHOULDN'T be able to overpower the male - that's just realistic.  Women just naturally have smaller frames than men.  It doesn't make them bad, but it does allow men to exert their influence over them without even having to resort to physical strength - the threat is everpresent, which is what creates male dominated societies in the first place.

However, anime often doesn't show the average male or female characters, and in this case it's reasonable to expect to see strength, both physically and pychologically, in women that is equal to or greater than the men, and this is often the case.

>But yeah, Japan's pretty sexist in real life too.  Domestic violence and rape are only just
>beginning to be addressed as problems over there.  Most rapes aren't reported and the men
aren't punished, because the woman would be too afraid to shame herself or her family,
or to compromise the honor or position of the man who did it (I hear this is especially
the case when girls at school are molested by teachers).

That's a typical misunderstanding of American racists. What you are talking is Korean situation, not Japan.
It's opposite in Japan: girl's blackmails are recognized as social problem these days.
The girls pick some coward-looking innocent man in crowded train, and accuse him as a sexual molester.
Not to be sued only to lose all his sosical position, man pays consolation money.
Mass media reported that a certain girl and her parents made big money with this blatant deception.

in women that is equal to or greater than the men, and this is often the case.

I think that's true, and my question is why American still think Japanese is sexist, even after
they watch anime like Sailer Moon. They watch only porn anime?

>>25

I watch a hell of a lot of anime, both old and new, and definitely try to watch stuff that's well liked and complimented.  And the examples I gave are certainly not complete--there's a lot of characters I didn't mention.  But still most of the female characters seem less richly characterized and interesting than male characters, and less often stand on their own rather than being an extension of a male character or object rather than subject of the action.  *shrug*

If you could recommend to me something I've yet to see, I'd love that.  I'm always on the lookout for new shows, especially if the female characters won't make me want to shoot them.

The physical strength issue is definitely awkward, because there is a general physical disparity between men and women.  Yet as you said, anime tends not to be about the average.

>>26

That's interesting to hear.  I've heard of the cases of women being molested on trains, but I haven't heard as much about false reports of such.  Not that I don't believe it happens, but is it a really widespread thing?

As to thinking Japan is sexist, a lot of it has to do with real life news reports and talking to both foreigners who've visited/lived in Japan and Japanese natives.  The news reports I see come both from foreign papers and Japan (English NHK World broadcasts or English language versions of newspaper articles online--I'm learning Japanese, but I can't follow Japanese language news yet).  I try not to judge Japanese society based on anime, since that's not really a good resource.

As to Sailor Moon, that and many other shows are somewhat problematic from a feminist perspective.  On the one hand, there are women and girls who have super powers and fight evil...on the other hand they're often simultaneously ditzy/dumb, more concerned with landing a boyfriend and going shopping than their mission/job/school/whatever, dolled up generally in cutesy or sexpot clothing regardless of personality, and often still constantly need to be saved or told what to do by men.

Now, that's being rather harsh on Sailor Moon because you pointed it out, and a lot of other shows have similar tropes/characterizations.  I personally like Sailor Moon (*looks over at DVD box sets on shelf*), and feel that it had a lot going for it because of the size of the female cast and the variety--yes, Usagi was clumsy and a crybaby, but it's okay for characters to not be perfect, and she did mature over the course of the show, and other inner Senshi were capable and fierce (Mars and Jupiter) and smart (Ami, though often the limited writing reduced her to stating the obvious); and in comparison to the fairly young and immature inner Senshi, we had the outer Senshi--Uranus and Neptune were a joy: focused on their duty, mature, tough, selfless, realistic.

What becomes unfortunate is not those elements in an individual show like Sailor Moon.  It's when other shows have these things without a lot of the variety or balancing characters that Sailor Moon had, or when problematic characterizations dominate the large number of shows.

For possibly a clearer example: it's not sexist when there's a female character, or a bunch of female characters, that dress sexy and are treated as eye candy.  The female body is a beautiful thing.  The problem is when almost all female characters are sex objects--when female characters, unlike a lot of male characters, are not allowed to *not* be eye candy; when the character's personality/job/hobbies (for example, a fighter, like many female video game characters and anime characters) aren't taken into consideration and they're just indiscriminately poured into cutesy or sexpot outfits; and when the character's personality and skills take a back seat to boobs and pantyshots. 

Male characters are often created and written with no thought to their eye candy potential.  Why shouldn't they be?  That's fine.  But how many female characters are allowed to not be cute or sexy?  It's not even just creators either, it's also in the audience/fan reaction--I've seen a hell of a lot more people insulting or bitching about unattractive female characters than unattractive male ones, and I don't see nearly as many comments about a given female character's smarts/capability/badassness as I do about her ass or tits.  And when it comes down to it, the most popular female characters with fans seem to be the most passive/subservient characters.  (Of course, this is based on my interaction with other fans online and at conventions, and observations by other people--I don't know of any statistical breakdowns being done on this, and it's not like I can talk to every single fan on the planet.)

I struggle somewhat with how much of the clothing issue has to do with sexism and how much to do with the apparent Japanese aesthetic for 'cute.'  I don't think it's one or the other, rather kind of a complicated mixture of both.

I don't want it to seem like I'm accusing only Japan, or saying that America is superior.  American television and movies still have a lot of characters/plots/designs that are problematic from a female perspective, and don't even get me started on the gender/sexuality issues in American comics.  And that's just art and entertainment--real life here in the US has plenty of sexist asshattery too.

I hope I'm managing to get anything across at all.

>>26

I'm not racist towards Japan at all. I get called a fat stupid American by the Japanese and I criticize them in turn. I don't see how that makes me racist. If I was racist, I'd be arguing that the Japanese have a tendency towards sexism due to genetic factors.

Any internet search on Japanese society or a basic overview of the Japanese language will tell you quite unambiguiously that Japan is quite sexist. In the case of anime, I get the impression that the Japanese have basically stolen socialist ideas frequently (existentialism, absurdism, and of course feminism).

>>26
well you know we all only watcfh their porn anyways

>>27
You definately have a point about the most submissive characters being the most popular... Rei from Eva, Ami from Sailor Moon, etc.  I imagine this stems from the Japanese ideal of "Yamato Nadeshiko" (this may be slighty/very inaccurate)(http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/yamatonadeshiko.html)
"Some features of that kind of woman are:

feminine
chaste and devoted to her husband
always respects and obeys her husband and never say things against him even when she thinks he's wrong (she should wisely find an indirect way to prevent her husband from doing something wrong without letting him know, that is to say without humiliating him).
looks weak, delicate and gentle (like a flower) in outer society, but able to cope with householding, raising kids etc.

During the second world war, the Japanese government promoted the idea of `yamatonadeshiko' as a kind of national propaganda. A `yamatonadeshiko' should be gentle and delicate but also be able to bravely survive all the pain and poverty of life for her husband (a soldier) and the country, to win the war, and should always be ready to fight with halberds (or `takeyari', a spear made of bamboo when you don't have a halberd) and die anytime for her country or to keep her chastity."

As far as female characters being used for eye candy regardless of their character, I'd have to tell you that that is more of a problem with society at large, rather than just anime, as you alluded to.

After thinking about it, I suppose that most anime does have shallow and poorly developed/stereotyped female characters - but the same could be said about the male ones, as well.  If you want interesting characters that aren't panty shots/screaming male characters' names, you need to look at the more interesting shows.  Obviously, Evangelion comes to mind - Rei is pretty submissive, but Asuka and Misato are both a lot more dominant than Shinji, and also very capable of their duties, as well as Ritsuko.  Revolutionary Girl Utena is another example of shows with strong and well developed girls; Planetes, One Piece, Cowboy Bebop, Tsukihime, and Monster all have the kind of female characters you might want to see as well.  Hell, even in Dragonball the girls were generally not there for rescue - Bulma often helped out with science stuff, Chichi was definately the man of the house, and that girl that sneezed had total control.

But then you have shows like Naruto, which I like a lot... but is an extremely sexist show.  So far in the anime, no female character has ever defeated a male, and sometimes even when they fight eachother, they still both lose.  For the most part, all of the female characters are there solely to be rescued by and to provide emotional support for the male characters.  In most fighting anime I could probably accept female characters being generally weaker than males, but Naruto is a show about ninja magic and stuff; there's no excuse.  THEY FUCKING TEACH THE FEMALE NINJAS FLOWER ARRANGEMENT IN NINJA SCHOOL *sigh*.  (Obviously Tsunade is a little bit of an exception to this, and I suppose she's doing better now, but at first she was pretty incompetent as well).

>>29
you win this thread

Oh yeah, like I tried to note, it's not as if other media is immune from the "female character as glorified sex doll" syndrome.  American media has it too, and I'm sure plenty of other countries have it in their media. 

Women, not having had a whole lot of social power in many societies, have hence had their femininity and social rules defined by men, thus often being held to much higher standards of physical attractiveness and often being reduced to not much more than that for male benefit (having pretty things to look at and hopefully possess).

Though some cultures have developed sort of side-by-side male and female worlds.  You can kind of see this in anime and manga, where Japanese women may be subject to a lot of sexism in overall male-dominated Japanese society and male made and targeted media, but women also have their own media where they can have their own female heroes and stories and whatnot, and certainly have their own aesthetic that they're making for their own group.  Though much of that can reinforce the overall traditional gender ideals rather than undermining it.  It's interesting in terms of gender/feminist discussion.

I haven't seen Planetes, Tsukihime or Monster yet, though I have the manga for Monster sitting on my hard drive waiting for when I have free time.  I've heard Planetes is really good scifi as well, so I'll probably check that one out.  I'll put Tsukihime on the list.

I love the girls in One Piece.  I'm pretty behind in it, but I've read enough to really get to like Nami and Robin.  The other girls like Vivi are cool too.

I don't complain about Eva too much.  Rei was passive, but there was more to it than her being that way just because she had a vagina, so it didn't really bother me.  And yeah, the other girls were very strong and capable.

Dragonball had cool female characters, but sadly they (along with all the other humans, really) got shafted majorly in Z to make room for the Super Awesome Aliens and Androids Show.  I try not to even remember GT.  Ew.

Cowboy Bebop's good too.  Faye's a sexpot, but it works because it's consistent for her.  And Ed is totally her own thing, heh.

Utena is just one of my favorites, ever.  <3.

See, it would be awesome if the ninja school in Naruto taught flower arranging to the boys too.  I didn't think flower arranging was very gender-segregated in Japan, but I'm not sure.  Anybody know some more about that?

I haven't watched very much of Naruto, so I haven't seen that many female characters, but Sakura seemed pretty annoying.  Though to be fair, the male characters are pretty archetypal there as well--Naruto is your loud dopey shonen hero, Sasuke seems like the standard brooding partner/rival, Kakashi is the cool mysterious teacher...  But like I said, I haven't watched a whole lot of it, so I'm not sure if they go beyond that.

I think flower arranging is one of the traditional schools of art. It seems to be a hobby that is mostly targeted at women. I've seen cultural videos and the flower arranging one basically had a group of all ladies doing it. It also seems to interest ladies that are older since they seem to have more leisure time and younger people don't seem as interested in the traditional arts anymore.

But with Naruto, I would say that the fact that the kunoichi are taught flower arranging is pretty goddamned sexist if the guys are learning how to kill and all these moves. I remember too that the kunoichi were more undercover kind of ninja so were more stealth rather than outright power, which seems limited in comparison to what the male ninjas do-- they seem to do stealth work in addition to kicking ass.

And about the anime characters-- I would say stereotypical archetypes exist for both genders but it seems like most of the male archetypes are allowed more diversity in terms of character- more personality based. Most of the female archetypes I know of in anime seem more focused on how cute they are and how much of a flower vase they are.

Sailor Moon is pretty unconventional but it's still also sexist in a lot of regards. They may fight monsters and all but it's still PRETTY Soldier Sailor Moon.

Actually One Piece female characters are pretty strong but I think the reason is that the One Piece creator has made it a point to say that they're all JUST friends-- there's no romantic subtext whatsoever in his mind. But for the most part, in series where there should be strong female characters, they're all usually relegated as flower vases-- there to look good and be a potential love interest.

C'mon, EVA has so many things wrong with it. So many fanboys are into Rei because she basically has no fricking personality and is passive. She speaks in a monotone and is an emotionless automaton. The other girls started out strong but in the end, their characterization got weak. (Spoiler warning) Shinji grows stronger than Asuka who has a nervous breakdown while Misato basically dies coming onto a boy. Ritsuko is screwed over by her own dead mother who chooses an ex-lover who betrayed her over her own fricking daughter. And if you haven't watched Evangelion, you haven't missed much, just a mental screwing over-- I don't care what the fanboys say about how deep and symbolic the ending was.

I'm not gonna touch Utena since most of the stuff I know of it is from others but it seems to me that it's also a lot of stuff going on under the surface. For me, upon further inspection of the series, Utena's female characters aren't as strong as I think they should be.

In general, while most manga is marketed towards teenage males, most anime is marketed tiwards teenage girls. This is the reason for all the 'girl power' anime.

Huh, I wonder how Japanese guys view all of the loser harem master type characters, like Keitaro from Love Hina?

Since Jews have taken enough heat for the sins of the world, its about time someone else steps up to the plate.

>>35
The same way as the typical english-speaking otaku:

"I sure wish I HAD all that pussy!"

I'm not so sure that the situation is as bleak as some are suggesting.

Sure, at one end of the scale are shows which are basically soft-core porn for teenage boys; needless to say, most of the female characters tend to be cute, sexy, and not much else.

But that's far from the whole story. Even in male-oriented anime, there are a fair number of kick-ass super-heroines (usually still gratuitously sexy, mind).

And there's plenty of anime of all genres with more realistic female characters ranging from hard-as-nails to total drip and from sex-goddess to plain-jane.

Also, many of the comments above regarding Evangelion are somewhat at odds with my take on it. One of the fundamental themes was Shinji's self-doubt and overall inadequacy. I didn't see Rei as being "passive" but calm, almost Zen-like, in contrast to Shinji's constant worrying.

Tie them to chair and make them watch every bit of Sailor Moon ever produced non-stop while tickling them with feather. Then make them answer questions about the Amazone Quartette.

Only when both men and women can realize that they're equal in potential, but differ in methodology will sexism ever dissappear. To this day the entire sexism / feminism debacle is still nothing more than two immature kids yelling "My way is better!" at each other.

You know. Like American politics. Same thing.